Recently, we’ve been getting an influx of visitors to our site from Hellas Fan Club. I was wondering why and then found out that someone posted a link to our blog. But here’s the thing, the title of their post was:
“WTF!!!! Ti allo tha doun ta matia mou?”
(Yeah, sorry for the vulgar language.)
I want to know when some Greeks will start to open their mind and realize the reality that Greeks are dropping Christianity like hotcakes and that culture is NOT the same thing as religion! To the rest of the world, this is basic knowledge that any 5th grader can understand.
Here’s some of their comments:
“Any Greek who converts to Islam forfeits his right to call himself a Hellene. Christianity is bad enough, but Islam in particular is the antithesis of Hellenism. “
“Really? What about the Hellenes before Jesus. You know, the ones we’re actually named after.”
For those of you from the Greek Fan Club who are reading this, you are contradicting yourselves. First, who gave that definition that a Greek must be Christian? Like what one member said, what were Hellenes before Jesus (peace be upon him)?
And this comment cracks me up:
Letting the Pakis build a mosque in Athens is one thing; Greeks deliberately converting to Islam is entirely another.
It disgusts me how people can be so blunt about nationalism and prejudice without feeling any shame. Take a look at our other posts and you will see why we are deliberatly converting to Islam and we are proud of it.
I suggest you read our previous posts here and here and the user comments that go with the post.
Sorry – this post turned out to be a little aggressive. Not my usual sytle but this topic is getting old and I’m tired of hearing it.
Did i read those comments correctly? “You cannot be Greek (Hellene) if you are muslim”?
Can someone from HFC answer this then?, Howcome the Greek government calls the Turks in Thrace Muslim Greeks, make up you’re minds, stop being hypocrites
Muslims do the same thing though. In saudi you forfeit your right to citizenship if you convert or choose the religion of your parent who is not muslim. And most muslims seem to have no problem with this because it is “the land of Islam”. It don’t see the difference between these two views personally
Not only that, but in Islam you forfeit your right to life itself if you convert to another religion. The punishment for apostasy in Islam is death, is it not? Greeks, on the other hand, won’t kill you for converting to Islam, so the least you can do is stop calling yourself Greek when you have chosen the Islamic Ummah as your new nation. You are not.
As for VMRO, [MOD EDIT: there is a difference between] citizenship and ethnicity. The Greek government has never said the Muslims of Thrace were ethnic Greeks, it simply refuses to recognize them as Turks, just as Turkey refuses to recognize Bartholomew as the Ecumenical Patriarch. That’s why they are the only “Greek Muslims”.
anonyuno, I haven’t heard of that before so I can’t say if it’s true or not but even if it is, a person never loses their culural background even if someone takes away their citizenship.
For example, a Palestinian is a Palestinian no matter what, even if Israelis force them out of their own homes, their own lands, and kick them out of their own country.
Therefore, a Greek will always be a Greek. Whatever way of life (religion) they choose to follow, that is the choice God gave them. As for culture, no one was given a choice to be born from a specific culture.
Macedonian, you are bringing up a hot topic of apostacy that has been a huge and twisted misconception that will take me much longer than this comment post do debunk. But I’m glad you brought up the difference between citizenship and ethnicity. There IS a difference as I have pointed out above.
In the end, we are proud to be both Greek and Muslim and we will always identify as such.
Thank you for visiting our website. Feel free to take a look around to see our viewpoints more in detail about this topic.
I’m sorry, but when you convert to a religion that expressly forbids you from participating in some of the most basic expressions of the culture into which you were born, how can you seriously expect to continue to be considered part of that culture? You’re not allowed to drink alcohol, eat a pork souvlaki, dance a Kalamatiano or Zeybekiko at the wedding of a friend or relative (are you even allowed to attend?), go to the theatre, admire the human body, which presumably means you can’t visit the New Acropolis Museum or have the nude statues that all Greeks have in their homes, etc. ad nauseam. You’re also not allowed to side with Greece in a dispute with a Muslim country, and it just so happens that the biggest threat to Greek national security comes from our Muslim neighbour to the East. As for the language, I’ve barely seen any Greek on this website, so presumably you were born a Greek of the diaspora, and even if you do speak Greek, your religion commands you to consider Arabic superior to the world’s oldest and most beautiful language. So what’s left? What makes you Greek other than the fact you [MOD EDIT: have Greek parents?]
Macedonian, what’s the *real* reason why you are determined to try to ban us from our Greek identity?
I think that Macedonian should be commended for his/her effort for visiting our Website and making a contribution. I didn’t know that eating the swine and drinking alcohol is a foundation upon which being a Greek depends upon. Thank you for enlightening us. Maybe we should consider calling ourselves something to the effect of “FCGSMD” (Former Christian Greek Speaking Muslims of the Dispora). I’m sure Macedonian would would not feel threatened. Then we could call Macedonian a citizens of FORM (Former Ottoman Region of Macedonia)
Ban you from your “Greek” identity? How would I do that? I’m simply telling you why Islam and Hellenism are fundamentally incompatible. As for the glib remarks of Abu Abdallah Azaam (very Hellenic name, εὖγε), yes, things as trivial as eating pork and drinking alcohol, especially wine, are part of Greek culture whether you like it or not, but I also mentioned a lot of other elements which your religion prohibits, and challenged you to tell the rest of us what it is that makes you Greek. So far on this website I’ve seen only vague references to the importance of “family”, as if Greeks are the only culture with such values. I’ve also seen a lot of Arabic phrases that are unintelligible to me as a Greek, but barely any Greek at all. Your sarcastic remarks about Macedonia suggest that you oppose the Greek position on the issue, which simply reinforces my suspicions regarding your (dis)loyalty to Greece. If you really are Greek, that is.
I think that Macedonian doesn’t know realy the islam’s history.
O Skopianos i alithinos makedonikos? do you know that Averroes made a comparaison between Koran and the Socrate’s Philosophy?
do you know that MEMET 2 had a big hellenistic culture?
No you don’t know that?
I am muslim and greek too! and I am not arab!! or turc I am greek!
Islam is an universal background and it isn’t reserved for an ethnic.
when I am in greece, I don’t eat pork or drink alcohol!! and so what? I am greek again.
A muslim can have a point of view of greek art and stay greek anyway.
I am muslim with a greek particularity like muslims with turk or arab or albanian or an other particularity!
that the truth I am greek who has chosen islam for religion and I am nothing else but GREEK. it’s matter of fact!
Macedonian, with all due respect, let’s not beat around the bush and keep going around in circles talking about less important issues.
Q: What is the real reason why you are here on this blog? What does it matter to you if we identify as Greeks or not?
How about having a go at answering some of my questions. All I’m doing is challenging you to defend your claims with arguments. You say you’re Greek, I say your way of life is anything but. Don’t just tell me I’m wrong, tell me WHY I’m wrong. Or is vigorous debate forbidden in Islam too?
And what does “O Skopianos i alithinos makedonikos” mean? It doesn’t make sense in Greek. As for Islam having anything to do with Hellenism, please. Hellenism is about challenging yourself and others to ask questions. Islam is about having all the questions answered for you, or, as you like to call it, “submission”. Submission is foreign to the Greek psyche. They are worlds apart.
Ok macedonian
firstly
In greek Skopianos=citizens of FYROM
alithinos Makedonikos = A citizen of the region of Macedonia in Greece.
Secondly, what do you want to know?
if a greek can be a muslim?
I answered you with my own experience= Yes you can.
I am living with my greek tradition excepted what is prohibited in ISLAM.
Again, you have curbed my questions. We are not here for a hot debate. I have no problem answering all questions as long as the questioner is sincere in his questioning and will actually *listen* to the answer.
What you have done throughout this conversation is throw one attack after another with many misconceptions that can be cleared up easily. I can go that route but I will not be taken down some twisted path, diverting from the main issue.
I was the first to ask you a question, it wasn’t answered. I asked you again, it was answered again.
We do not owe you anything and we do not have to keep “proving” to you that we are Greek. It would be a waste of time to go on and on in circles.
There is no reason for us to create an entire website for Greek Muslims on the pretense that we are lying about our identity. We believe in one God and staying away from lying is one of the tenets of our faith, so we have absolutely no compelling reason to lie.
We are in the last days of the blessed month of Ramadan and I would rather engage in night worship to the one true God that created both you and me than to waste our time here if we are not going to accomplish anything.
If you are sincere, then you will answer my original question: what’s the real reason you are determined to “ban” us or challenge our identity? And in the end, what does it matter to you?
May God guide both you and us to the right path and use our time wisely.
Speak for yourself, please. No Jewish-inspired “God” created me, thank you very much. The guy before you said he lives with his Greek tradition “excepted what is prohibited in ISLAM”. My contention is that there is hardly anything left if you take out everything that Islam prohibits. In fact, I can’t think of anything significant other than the Greek language, which you seem to have forsaken in favour of the ubiquitous Arabic expressions which you repeat mechanically depending on the occasion.
I never said that you were lying about your identity or that you had to “prove” your Greekness to me. I’m simply saying that having Greek parents is not the same as being, living and breathing Greek. Genetics is only a very small part of the equation. As for lying, I believe it is permitted in Islam in certain circumstances (taqiyya) if the purpose is to advance the Muslim cause, no?
And yes, I am a real Macedonian, therefore Greek.
I think we can come to a peaceful conclusion then. You have your definition and we have ours.
(fyi: no we do not believe in this type of lying and most Muslims don’t. I have heard of a small minority Muslim group that may believe in this but we absolutely reject it as it does not have any claim in the Islamic faith because it is deceitful and unethical. We strive to be upright human beings that benefit society and lying is a major sin.)
Now, you bring me to our next topic. You are giving me a compelling reason to ask you,
Who created you?
My parents created me. Sperm and ovum, uniting to form the embryo.
As for who created me in a more metaphysical sense, who knows? I think it is the height of human hubris against the universe to claim we know where we really come from, when as a species we still know so little. Religion is pure speculation.
You reminded me of this verse in the Quran:
Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? No, but they have no firm belief.
(Quran: 52: 35-36)
How about having the firm belief that they were created by the great unknown? 😉
Interesting concept, but then who would be the creator of the heavens and the earth?
Hello, to all of you.
I am so happy to find your blog. It’s so surprising to find Greek Muslims. Keep up the good work. I am not a Muslim but I am a Greek.
I’ve read all your conversations about how someone can be a Greek and Muslim, too.
I would like to say, that in the holy island of God Apollo, [before the distruction of the Hellenic civilization by the Christian Priests and Monks with the help of the Christian Roman Emperors of Byzantium], there used to co-exist 26 different temples from 26 different religions, including,….a cynagoge!
So, what I would like to say to the ”Macedon” is that the Pre-Christian Hellenic civilization, used to embrace all different beliefs of the Divine. If, by referring to all of you, who embrace Islam as your religion but you all want to keep your Greekness, that you are not really… Greeks, is really a misunderstanding of todays, identification of Greekness.
That’s because, being someone Greek really means, the one who participates in the Civilization of the Greeks. Civilization is the set of ideas, ethics, values, history, language and ancestry in which someone feels that he/she belongs.
It is not the common habits, a society may develop. It is not the habit of pork souvlaki, ouzo and … kamaki. It is not going to parties, weddings or cinemas.
Although, Islamic values and ethics differ from the contemporary habitual society of Westernization, this does not mean that the Hellenic civilization does not still live, in part, within the Christian AND within the Islamic civilizations!
Both, had ”forced” [by themselves] to adopt … too many philosophical, scientific ideas and values from the pantheistic – polytheistic civilization of the ”real” Greeks!
So, it is very sad, to see todays Greeks to deny from others [Greeks] their Greekness! This is insane!!
We are ALL Greeks, no matter in what God, language, or not, we believe in or, speak to. We are all share common ancenstry, history, ideas and language. E! only the Ethics differ and how we think how and who God is.
Big deal! We must not make the same mistakes as our last forefathers did, back in 1922!
Thank you
Pierra
Pierra, what does Islam have to do with the set of ideas, ethics, values, history, language and ancestry that bind the Greeks together? If anything, a major element that contributed to the survival of the Greeks was their rejection of and resistance to the Muslim empire of the Ottomans. The ancient Hellenes declared anyone who didn’t speak Greek a barbarian, and yet we have “Greeks” who uphold Arabic rather than Greek as their “sacred tongue”, being commanded to do so by their religion. The problem with Islam, like Christianity and Judaism is that it tolerates no “competition” from other belief systems. So perhaps there were 26 temples from 26 different religions co-existing on the holy island of the god Apollo (do you mean Delos, by the way?), but any religion other than Islam is forbidden in Mecca and Medina, and probably Jerusalem too if the Muslims had their way. Respect and tolerance require reciprocity, at the very least. That is very difficult when one of the Islamic commandments is to denigrate other religions, and to have no respect at all for agnostics and atheists like myself.
Very well said, Macedonian. But, with some…historical misunderstandings.
=>[”a major element that contributed to the survival of the Greeks was their rejection of and resistance to the Muslim empire of the Ottomans”]
The Greeks were forbidden to identify themselves with their national name Έλλην because, the main goal of the Byzantine Emperors and the Priesthood was to diminish and if possible to exterminate the nation of the Greeks-Hellenes! [Look at the ancient temples of our country, everything is in ruins.] The Greeks during the Ottoman occupation still called themselves Romaioi or Romioi, [they kept the name that the Roman Christian Emperors were forced them to identify themselves.] So, during the Ottoman Empire the Greeks used to call themselves Romioi and fought against the Muslims [Ottomans] to save their Christianhood! They did not care about their nationality! They did care about how to save their religion-Christianity, so, they survived through…Christianity. [The established religion-Christianity that caused the destruction of their civilization!] It ‘s ironic!
But, I also want to say that if the Ottomans really wanted to force the then Greeks to become Muslims, they could do it very easily. But they didn’t, because, they needed taxes. The diemmies Greeks and other Christian populations were the taxpayers! So, better not to say that the Greeks survived because they fought against the Muslim Ottomans.
It was the Ottomans thirst for wealth, who made them survived.
=>[”The ancient Hellenes declared anyone who didn’t speak Greek a barbarian, and yet we have “Greeks” who uphold Arabic rather than Greek as their “sacred tongue”, being commanded to do so by their religion”]
As for todays Greeks who become Muslims and they command Arabic rather than Greek, well, it is because, Islam has not been yet, absorbed by their Greek way of doing and saying things. Meaning that it’s new into our culture, habits and manners. After, 100 years or more, the Greek Muslims by themselves, they will begin little by little to Hellinize the Arabic terms and Language.
The same thing did, the Iranians, the Turks and the Pakistanis.
Do not forget that at the begginings of the Christian Church almost everything was in Hebrew, in Syriac or in the Coptic Language, but later, everything translated into Greek. [By the way, the Greek language was saved out of necessity! It was the then International Language, thanks to Alexander the Great!]
[YES, I MEANT DELOS ISLAND]
[what does Islam have to do with the set of ideas, ethics, values, history, language and ancestry that bind the Greeks together?]
Islam share many common ideas with the ancient Greeks!
Islam has adopted Neoplatonism and Aristotelianism [as much as the Christian Church has] to give some explanations of its Theology.
Also, the idea of austerity, of not someone being greedy, the idea of modesty, the idea of lending someone in exchange of interest, was extreemely immoral thing to do, back in ancient Greece [Aristotelous economicos, e.t.c.] as is in Islam, too. These are some examples, they share in common.
Of course, there are some other differences, but better to focus into our commonalities we share, rather than our differences. Unless, someone wants to lead us into civil war!
Also, todays Greeks are not the ”same” Greeks as their ancient forefathers and foremothers used to be. Todays Greeks become, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists in few words, they follow other cultures. They do not believe in the culture-civilization-religion who had created philosophers and inspired by their Gods and Goddesses. So, as long as, todays Greeks do not follow the norms of their anciestors, they do not have the right to say to noone, that being a Muslim is less Greek than someone else who is a Christian.
Do not forget, that the only difference between todays Greeks and ”Turks” in Turkey and elsewhere, is religion!
We do not need to create anymore ”Turks”, in Greece. Do we?
We are ALL Greeks, no matter in what God, language, or not, we believe in or, speak to. We are all share common ancenstry, history, ideas and language. E! only the Ethics differ and how we think about who God is.!.
=> [”The problem with Islam, like Christianity and Judaism is that it tolerates no “competition” from other belief systems”
=> [”any religion other than Islam is forbidden in Mecca and Medina, and probably Jerusalem too if the Muslims had their way
=> [”one of the Islamic commandments is to denigrate other religions, and to have no respect at all for agnostics and atheists like myself”
=> [”Respect and tolerance require reciprocity, at the very least”]
The reason the ancient Greeks called ”Barbarians” anyone who did not speak the Greek Language, was maily because, the non-Greeks ”OTHERS” obeyed to ruthless rulers – Tyrrants and were so much oppressed that, they believed in them, they were their living Gods on Earth!.
The ancient Greeks used to always call the Semitic tribes and the ancient Egyptians as being very αρχομανή! So, the three Semitic religions share intolarance in religion because, they were developed by peoples who were and are ”very” ruthless and have ruthless rulers. They love to rule by ruthless measures…so that to have better control of their subjects…religious subjects.
Thank you
Pierra
Pierra, welcome to the website. I agree, going around in circles like this about this non-issue topic is INSANITY.
Let’s get back on track with what we were discussing last. Macedonian, it seems like you don’t like answering my questions. 😉
So, who created the heavens and the earth?
Are you truly satisfied in life delving into all the scientific details of everything else in life and then when it comes to the BIGGEST creation of all, the heavens and earth, your answer is…
unknown??
(Please don’t curb my question. Thank you.)
Yes, the answer can ONLY be unknown. And it is the height of human arrogance to think you know for certain something that can never be proven.
Thanks Pierra for agreeing with me that the three Semitic or Abrahamic religions are inherently intolerant, and ultimately alien to the free-spirited nature of Hellenism. As for the possibility of “civil war”, this will only happen if Muslims become a significant proportion of the Greek population, which I do not believe will, or should be allowed to, ever happen. Ultimately, a Muslim will always put Islam before Greece. As greekmuslim said, you cannot choose the culture into which you were born. To me there is an element of lamentation in that statement. You would much rather have been born an Arab, wouldn’t you? Which leads me to ask the inevitable question, why do you feel that being a Muslim is not enough? Why do you feel you have to remain Greek too? Isn’t Islam supposed to be an all-encompassing identity and way of life? Can you really be part of the Islamic Ummah (nation) AND part of a nation whose overwhelming majority are not and do not want to be Muslims? What happens when your beloved Caliphate is restored and Greece is next on the to-conquer list?
Thank you Greekmuslim for welcoming me in and for giving us this post to express our views freely!!.
Macedon and Greekmuslim:
I hope one day Muslims and Christians will trully be brothers and sisters.
I hope one day Muslims and Christians do not have to kill each other because they have to defend their own respected Ummas and Christian Nations.
I hope one day to see each others face and smile with compassion and love!! Because we are all Greeks!!!
Please, Macedon you have to understand that when you deny the Greekness [for example] from a group of people, it is in human nature, to turn against you and become your enemy [even if they may be your brothers and sisters].
So, that a new nation from those to be created!
Do you really want this happen?
That’s what had happened during the Ottoman occupation. Whoever was becoming a Muslim automatically ostracised from the Christian nation and was becoming a Turk! or TurkAlbanian…! [Apostle Paul called the Christians a Nation, that form a separate nation from the non-Christians]
So, although you call yourself an agnocist-atheist, you still use the language and expression and arguments of a Christian!
So, you must not say that the Muslims are not Greeks because, Christians are also not Greeks!
Greekness does not mean and does not belong to Christianity. Greekness belongs to the civilization that gave birth to the free-spirited nature of Hellenism, as you said before.
What I want to say is that, you identify nationality with religion. This is wrong.
Take a look at the Albanians. Muslim and Christian Albanians are so closely related to each other so much that within a family, some members are Muslims and the rest Christians. But, first of all and most of all, they are ALL Albanians!
This is a very good example, that Christians and Muslims CAN live together:
We are ALL Greeks, no matter in what God, language, or not, we believe in or, speak to. We all share common ancenstry, history, ideas and language.
Macedon, I would also like to suggest you, to read the ancient Greek Philosophers, not only Plato and Aristotle but the late philosophers those who fought intellectually the Christianhood. They will give you, a lot of answers about the heavens and earth, about God or Atheism.
God can be proven that exists only if you open your ears or eyes and soul.
Otherwise, you cannot see through a shatted door! Can you?
Thank you
Pierra
The only reason I favour the Greek Orthodox Church over Islam is that its sacred language is the ancient Greek language of our glorious ancestors, whereas Islam’s is the [MOD EDIT] tongue of the Arabs. You cannot deny that the Church played a crucial role in preserving the Greek language and identity, and for that it deserves our respect, though not necessarily our deference. But my own personal beliefs are agnostic, as I think it arrogant to claim to know where we came from when in reality we have no clue.
Yet another example of Islamic “tolerance”:
http://serbianna.com/news/2008/03088.shtml
Macedonian, since the beginning you have been sending us attack after attack fueled with misconceptions, twisting information or false propaganda.
We (meaning us on this website) have not harmed you the slightest bit but you seem to keep launching attacks. Note though, despite this, I have continued to let your posts be published. (<– How’s THAT for tolerance? 😉 )
Like I said before, I am very busy due to it being the busiest time of the year for us – end of Ramadan, now into the celebration.
I would have liked to give a more detailed response and perhaps I will after our holidays.
In the end, thank you for sharing your feedback with us. It at least gives us an idea of how others view the world and the level of desperation to rid themselves of that empty feeling inside they feel due to not knowing why they are here on this world to begin with and what the purpose of life is!
It must be really depressing to live a life like that. (No offense intended; I really truly feel with ya’.)
Desperation? I’m not the one getting hysterical over a couple of cartoons or blowing myself up like your devout Muslim “brothers” around the world…
Hello Macedonian. Welcome to OUR Muslim site. We are happy to have you here as a guest. And I am very happy to see that you are a constant musafiri (as they say as well, I think, in rural Macedonia) here–a traveler and guest to and from our site. Happy indeed 🙂 I do not know how I have missed this post. SubhanAllah! It is extremely interesting. And so are all the red herrings-taqiyyah…..cartoon hysteria…pork souvlaki! Also, I see that you seem to be quite informed about topics that are somehow and somewhat linked with Islam. Makes it even more interesting. My name is Hayrullah. Being that you are directly from Greece I am sure you have heard of the two words Hairi=good and Allah=the Arabic word for the One God, Creator of all. You know the word besides OPA! that is called out by dancers and singers in Greece during the height of their kefi (I am very sorry I do not know the Greek word to use here because I am from a village. I only know the Turkish word. If you do not know it’s meaning, I hope you can grab it by the context)? I am as well from Northern Greece…..a little west of you. I would like to extend the hand of friendship and brotherhood in HUMANITY to you. It would be my honor if you accept it as it was and is my honor that you constantly go out of your way and visit us.
As long as you reciprocate the tolerance accorded you in the West, that’s fine. But don’t expect to have your cake and eat it too. How about allowing non-Muslims to step foot in Mecca, for starters?
Saudi Arabia is a [MOD EDIT: bad] society and they do not follow proper Islam law, they have their own little Arab thing going on and they are governed by corrupt people. So you can’t even go saying that Islam is bad, just because Saudis are screwing up. It’s like saying Greeks are just because many of them are narrow minded towards Greeks leaving Orthodox Christianity.
WOWOOWOOO there bro Macedonian! Hold your horses! I hope and would like to think that this is not the way you initially introduce yourself or accept invitations given to you. I do not think this is the way Greeks are known to express their kindness, hosptality and politeness. At least in the region I am from this is not the case. There is no need for even the slightest aggression here. Peace my friend peace. Aggressive approaches only breed defensive responses. Maybe for starters you can take a deep breath, relax a little and introduce yourself. I would really like to know a little about you and your background…..what your views are concerning mankind, life, current affairs, history etc. I have read all your posts and I really want to understand why/how you see certain things in the way you do. You do not seem like an insecure individual, there is NO NEED for you to start off on the defensive when no attack is evident. Halarose aderfe. This approach can give a wrong picture to an outsider or confirm certain stereotypes to insiders. Surely me and you do not want that. Now, if you do not mind, what is your name Bro?
Assalamu alaikum Noor Al Deen
I just wish to say that it is not fair to say that Saudi Arabia is governed by corrupt people. I agree that there may be some corruption, however there is also alot of good. They facilitate and even feed the pilgrims, they sponsor so many foreigners to come and study there, they distribute thousands upons thousands of Qu’ran’s for free and even translate them into many different langauges. All this is not easy. I cannot find another country which is enforcing the Shariah as much as they are (although they are not perfect, nobody is).
If we find our brothers/sisters doing something that displeases Allah then we should advise them, even pray for them. Please do not be offended by what I say.
I agree. Saudi Arabia is simply following Islam to the letter, and Islam says that non-Muslims should be discriminated against. Which leads me to the inevitable question: how can Muslims expect to be treated well in the West when they treat non-Muslims so poorly in their own countries?
Do you notice how Macedonian curbs all of our questions and just tries to cause fitna between us on non-important issues or false ideas/misconceptions? (He just totally skips my questions as well as Br. Hayrullah’s)
Please brothers and sisters, don’t fall into his trap and be divided. This is the 38th comment on this thread and when you look at the posts, we are not even talking about a specific topic. He is trying to lead us down some twisted, narrow path of fitna with no real substance.
It’s a huge waste of time. If we don’t get back on track with the main topic here, I will have to close this thread.
At least it’s the most lively thread on the entire forum, wouldn’t you agree? I think I’ve answered your questions, actually. I don’t believe in your “God”, and I don’t think anyone can know for certain who or what created the universe. How about answering mine? As for Hayrullah (another Hellenic name, bravo), he only asked me one question, my name, which I don’t believe is relevant to the conversation. Speaking of Fitna, have you seen the film of the same name by Dutch MP Geert Wilders? Should he receive 100 lashes or be stoned to death? 😉
Aaaahhh, Macedonian, are you really this hard to talk to in person as well or is that because we are Muslim, you give us this ‘special treatment’? 🙂
I don’t answer your questions because well, they aren’t even questions. They are just attacks and ways to take us down some twisted path of nonsense, and you know it! Just admit it.
This thread is such a massive waste of time unless we focus on one topic at a time. How about we all put our cards on the table and start with HONESTY of why we are really here on this thread?
I will go first:
I am here to discuss in the most POLITE MANNER the concept of who created the heavens and the earth and to prove it. We can do this without bashing, insulting, twisting, getting off-topic and talking about Muslims or Christians. We can talk from evidence from the scriptures. Islam is not what Muslims do and Christianity is not what Christians do. Rather they are judged by their books and only laymen talk about its followers. Real debates occur at the scripture level.
I am not here to lie to you or to deceive you because I believe that we will be punished in hell for that so there is no reason for me to do that.
I am not here to convert you. I believe that it is not our job to convert, it is only our duty to convey the proper message of Islam and clarify (all of those) misconceptions you are bring up.
I am here to discuss these issues ONLY IF you are sincere in WANTING to know the answers.
I thank you for asking about our religion.
Now, your turn. What are your cards? Please don’t bring in some more off-topic ideas of what other Muslims do around the world. Just tell us a little bit about yourself and why you are here on this thread. Why are you an agnostic? What is your goal from ‘hangin out’ with us?
I hope after the 40th post, that we’ll finally find out.
Why are you so defensive? And what do you mean by “misconceptions”? Are the things I have mentioned factually incorrect? Am I not considered “ritually unclean” in Islam? Why whitewash the truth and pretend we’re all one big happy family when we’re nothing of the sort?
Now, your turn. What are your cards? Please don’t bring in some more off-topic ideas of what other Muslims do around the world. Just tell us a little bit about yourself and why you are here on this thread. Why are you an agnostic? What is your goal from ‘hangin out’ with us?
I don’t have a goal, I’m simply curious as to why a Greek would choose a religion that is so antithetical to his or her own culture. Beyond that, there are more general questions about Islam and its treatment of non-believers that I, as a non-believer, would like answered. Perhaps you can help. As for why I’m agnostic, I think I’ve already told you several times already, but I’ll say it again: because I think that claiming to have all the answers is the epitome of human arrogance, and that’s precisely what the Abrahamic religions, especially Islam, profess. Don’t take that as an attack, take it as just one among many opinions, which we are all free to express in the West, unlike most if not all Islamic countries.
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Things are much more clear now.
I will come up with a response to your post (#43) God willing, and if others on our site would like to pitch in, that’s great too. I’d like to only concentrate on this post so we don’t get side-tracked.
You mentioned you have more general questions about Islam and its treatement of non-believers. If you’d like, you can post your top 3-5 questions for us as well and we can answer those for you.
Nice to meet the real Macedonian.
Macedonian, what is the matter with my name?
It’s not Greek.
No…..it is not. What is wrong with that?
Hayrullah, I think that Macedonian is neglecting the fact that a large percentage of Greeks are giving their children Biblical names. Meaning that a large portion of Greeks carry Jewish names, not Hellenic. My brother was given a Jewish name, whilst I was given a Catholic name derived from Jewish roots. My dads family is made up 50% people with Ancient Hellenic names and 50% made up of Jewish Biblical names.
Macedonian, are you aware of the area of Imathia? I will give you the name of the village where my family resides and you can tell them that because of their names they are not Greek. If you get out alive you will be lucky. My point beng that a name doesn’t exclude or include into a specific culture.
A’salaamu’Alaikum,
I’ll insha’Allah be writing a response for Macedonian regarding some of the issues addressed with “Hellenism” and Greek Pride and preservation of Hellenism. This will not just be useful for Macedonian, but also for Greeks to have as information.
I have been busy with school, work, physio-therapy (from an injury), and studies…etc and I don’t have the time at the moment to gather my facts and info, so be ready for it when it comes.
geia kai xara
Well, I just want him to tell me what is wrong with my name not being Greek.
I wonder how Greek Macedonian name really is. I bet you that people in his immediate family have Jewish based Names.
But Hayrullah isn’t even Hellenized, like say Ιωάννης (Hebrew) or Κωνσταντίνος (Latin). It’s completely foreign to the rules of Greek phonology.
Peace to you
Pax ad tu
Salam aleykum
Shalom Alekhem
Herene ymin
Vrede tot jou
Frieden zu dier
(Ha, I always wanted to do that)
So Macedonia, εγώ που ξέρω Αγγλικά, Λατινικά, Αραβικά, Εβραϊκά, Ελληνικά, Ολλανδικά και Γερμανικά είμαι άγγλο-λατινο-αραβο-εβραίο-ελληνο-ολλανδο-γερμανός; Τα ονόματα που φέρω είναι Σεβαστιανός Γεώργιος και Έμηρ, που άντε το ένα να έχει ελληνική ρίζα απο το σέβομαι, άρα κατα τα άλλα είμαι ξένος; Κανείς δεν είπε πως η αραβική γλώσσα είναι ανώτερη, αντίθετα, ο προφήτης (ευλογία Του Θεού και ειρήνη) είπε, πως ο μη-άραβας δεν είναι καλύτερος απο τον άραβα και ούτε ο άραβας καλύτερος απο τον μη-άραβα όπως και ο μαύρος δεν είναι καλύτερος απο τον ασπρο και ο άσπρος αντίστοιχα του μαύρου, εκτώς στην ευσέβεια. Θυμίσου πως στην ελληνιστική εποχή, Έλλην ήταν αυτός που είχε ελληνική παιδεία, που εμένα μου λέει αυτό πως τα κριτήρια αλλάζουν συνέχεια, που σήμερα λένε πως πρέπει να είσαι ορθόδοξος χριστιανός, αύριο μπορεί μουσουλμάνος, ποτέ δεν ξέρεις, εγώ όμως προτείνω να καταργηθούν κριτήρια όπως θρήσκευμα, και να μπούνε πιο “σοβαρά” όπως η χαζομάρα που βαράει τον σημερινό. Για να τεκμηριώσω αυτό που είπα και να μη μπορέσεις να το πάρεις απλά σαν επίθεση κατά του ήθους σου, θα σου πώ το εξείς. Πάρε τις ευρωπαϊκές χώρες, και δές τι ανάπτυξη είχανε, και ρώτα τον εαυτό σου αν η Ελλάς των ελλήνων, είχε την ίδια ανάπτυξη. Αν μπεί τέτοιο κριτήριο, εγώ προσωπικά δεν θα ήθελα να συνεχίσω να λέγομαι έλλην, γιατί εγώ θέλω να πιστεύω πως είμαι δυναμικό άτομο που θα προσφέρει, μέσω της ηθικής του και του τρόπου ζωής του, κάτι καλό στον κόσμο, και στην Ελλάδα πρώτα απ’ όλα. Ξέρεις, τελικά δεν με κάνει έλληνα το αν μου αρέσει το χοιρινό σουβλάκι (γιατί υπάρχει και κοτόπουλο που είναι και πιο ωραίο), αλλά η αγάπη μου προς την γή όπου έλαβαν μέρος τόσα (τόσο αξιοθαύμαστα) γεγονότα, και η βούλησή μου, να κάνω αυτή την γή να καρποφορήσει πάλι. Έχοντας πεί αυτά, μπορώ κάλιστα να πώ πως εσύ δεν είσαι έλληνας, επειδή παρ’ όλο που σα διάολος ξέρεις πως οι έλληνες μουσλιμήν θα έφερναν διαφωτισμό στην Ελλάδα, απο πείσμα και μόνο, δεν το επιτρέπεις να συμβεί. Ναι, κάνουμε κι εμείς επιθέσεις κατά του ήθους, αν αυτό θα φέρει κάτι καλύτερο, κι εγώ προσωπικά σκέφτομαι πράγματι να κάνω κάτι καλό για την Ελλάδα που αγαπώ.
Να! Μιλάμε και ελληνικά! τώρα θα μας επιτρέψεις να τιτλοφορήσουμε “Έλλην”;
Ξεπέρασα τον αριθμό επιτρεπόμενων αραβικών όρων στον λόγο μου ώστε να μη μπορώ να θεωρηθώ έλληνας; Αν ναι, συγχώρα με :P.
Μακάρι να βρείς το φώς σου φίλε μου, γιατί αλλιώς μας βλέπω να καταλήγουμε σε εμφύλιο πόλεμο, και όχι για άλλο λόγο, απλά επειδή κάτι αδέρφια αγνωστικιστές (θρώσκοντες την άγνοια) εθνικιστές δεν μας επιτρέπουν να κάνουμε κάτι καλό για την οικογένεια ονόματι Ελλάς.
Και κάτι άλλο, το πνεύμα του Ελληνισμού είναι το “μελετάω και ψαχνω την αλήθεια αλλά δεν την βρίσκω ποτέ” ή “Εγώ βρήκα αυτά, αυτή είναι η αλήθεια μου”; Γιατί αν είναι το πρώτο, δικαιώνονται τα λόγια σου, αλλά αν είναι το δεύτερο, δικαιώνονται τα δικά μας, γιατί ψάξαμε και βρήκαμε, και αυτή είναι η αλήθεια που πιστεύουμε.
Θα σου πώ κάτι όμως, που πρέπει να το σεβαστείς όπως εμείς σεβόμαστε. Στο Κοράνι, στο δεύτερο κεφάλαιο, στίχος 256, γράφει, “Δεν υπάρχει καταναγκασμός στην θρησκεία”, δηλαδή, δεν μπορώ να σε καταναγκάσω στην θρησκεία μου, και σε Ισλαμική χώρα, δεν μπορείς να με καταναγκάσεις στην θρησκεία σου, με άλλα λόγια, ανεξιθρησκεία. Εμείς δηλαδή, σου παρέχουμε το κάθε…ναι, ΚΑΘΕ…δικαίωμα να είσαι ό,τι θέλεις, και δεν επιτρέπουμε σε κανέναν να σου αφαιρέσει αυτό το δικαίωμα, αλλά περιμένουμε σαν ανταπόδοση, να κάνεις κι εσύ το ίδιο, και να μη μας λές πως δεν είμαστε έλληνες επειδή δεν είμαστε άθεοι ή πολυθεϊστές.
Αυτά είχα να πώ.
Βασικά θυμήθηκα πως δεν ολοκλήρωσα κάτι που ήθελα να πώ. Για την αραβική γλώσσα. Η αραβική γλώσσα που λές, δεν είναι παρά μια γλώσσα όπως όλες οι γλώσσες. Το Κοράνι δεν λέει πουθενά πως η γλώσσα καθ’ αυτή είναι ανώτερη κάποιας άλλης, αλλά ούτε μπορείς εσύ να πείς πως η Ελληνική είναι ανώτερη απο κάποια άλλη (παρ’ όλο που δεν μπορώ παρα να παραδεχτώ πως είναι παντελώς αξιοθαύμαστη). Δεν θυμάμαι που ακριβώς το διάβασα αυτό, αλλά είχα διαβάσει, πως οι προφήτες έφερναν συνήθως το σημείο Του Θεού ανάλογα με το τι είχε μεγάλη ακμή στην εποχή. Για παράδειγμα, ο Μωυσής (ευλογία Του Θεού και ειρήνη πάνω του), όπου στην εποχή του ήταν η μαγεία σε μεγάλη ακμή στην Αίγυπτω, ήρθε και έκανε παρόμοια με τους μάγους, απλά αναμφισβήτητα πολύ πιο δυνατά. Ο Ιησούς (ευλογία Του Θεού και ειρήνη πάνω του), σε μια εποχή όπου η ιατρική ήταν σε μεγάλη ακμή, ήρθε με θαύματα ιατρικής αξίας (γιάτρευε αρώστους και λοιπά) ενώ ο Μουχάμμαντ (ευλογία Του Θεού και ειρήνη πάνω του) σε μια εποχή όπου η ποίηση ήταν στην ακμή της στην αραβία, ήρθε με ένα τέλειο λογοτεχνικό έργο. Η αραβική γλώσσα, δεν είναι δύσκολη, άρα ούτε “ανώτερη”(ενώ η ελληνική σαφώς είναι πολύ δυσκολότερη), και αυτό, για να μαθαίνεται εύκολα, ώστε να μπορείς να κατανοήσεις καλύτερα το Κοράνι, όπου έχει φτιαχτεί για την αραβική γλώσσα, και η αραβική γλώσσα για αυτό. Θα σου θυμίσω πως στο Κοράνι λέει αρκετές φορές πως προφήτες εστάλθησαν παντού, που σημαίνει πως υπάρχουν και σε άλλες γλώσσες ιδια πράγματα που ειπώθηκαν στο αραβόφωνο Ισλάμ, πράγμα που σημαίνει πως Ο Θεός χρησιμοποιεί περισσότερες γλώσσες για να δόσει την αλήθεια στους ανθρώπους, που σημαίνει πως δεν υπάρχει ανώτερη ή κατώτερη.
Τέλος πάντων, ελπίζω να βγεί σε καλό αυτή η συζήτηση γιατί πρέπει να ομολογήσω πως είναι πολύ κουραστική.
Macedonian
You are so random and absolutely out of context. The rules of Greek phonology haver absolutely nothing to do with this post.
Ιωάννης is still derived from Jewish roots, so it is not Hellenic, its just a hellenised version of a Jewish name. So Greeks can carry Jewish and Pre-Christian Latin names as they carry Catholic, Arabic, Persian and Pre-Christian Hellenic names. This is a fact whether you like it or not. I think that your point is that you do not have one.
What are your general questions about Islam and its treatment of non-believers that you would like answered? I’m also curious as to why a proud Greek such as yourself would choose a religion that is so antithetical to his or her own culture and claim to be an agnostic and turn your back on the Church that you were probably baptised in?.
Όχι, είσαι απλά ένας πολύγλωσσος μουσουλμάνος. Όσο για τα ονόματά σου, και το «Σεβαστιανός» και το «Γεώργιος» έχουν ελληνική ρίζα, δηλαδή αυτά που δεν έχουν σχέση με το Ισλάμ. Όταν λες ότι θέλεις η Ελλάδα «να καρποφορήσει πάλι», τι εννοείς ακριβώς; Να περιέλθει εκ νέου στα χέρια των μουσουλμάνων; Αυτό πρέπει να το διευκρινίσεις, για να ξέρουμε για τι πράγμα μιλάμε. Τι είδους διαφωτισμό έφεραν οι μουσουλμάνοι στην Ελλάδα; Τον απόλυτο σκοταδισμό της Οθωμανικής Αυτοκρατορίας; Απ’ όσο γνωρίζω, η ελληνική φιλοσοφία ήταν αυτή που επηρέασε τους μουσουλμάνους, όχι το αντίστροφο. Όσο για την αραβική, ισχύει ἠ όχι η αρχική απαγόρευση ως προς τη μετάφραση του Κορανίου (άσχετα από το τι συνέβη στη συνέχεια); Και αν δεν θεωρείται ιερή γλώσσα του Ισλάμ η αραβική, γιατί οι τελετές σας είναι αμιγώς αραβόφωνες; Όσο για το αν είστε Έλληνες ή όχι, εγώ εξακολουθώ να πιστεύω πως επιλέξατε να μην είστε. Το ίδιο, είμαι βέβαιος, πιστεύει και η μεγάλη πλειοψηφία των Ελλήνων. Τέλος, η απειλή που εξαπέλυσες περί εμφυλίου πολέμου, αν και προκλητική, είναι εν τέλει άνευ σημασίας, αφού δεν πρόκειται ποτέ ως Έλληνες να σας επιτρέψουμε να μας απειλήσετε ξανά.
Όχι φίλε μου, δεν ήταν απειλή, γιατί μονάχα εσείς θα μας τον κάνατε. Αυτό ακριβώς είναι το πρόβλημα. Και όχι, το Ισλάμ δεν έχει διαφωτίσει ή φέρει σε σκοταδισμό την Ελλάδα και πολλοί είναι οι έλληνες που παραδέχονται πως μια χαρά ήταν οι τούρκοι και έλληνες πριν τους κεμαλικούς. Και με διαφωτισμό, εννοώ να καταφέρουμε να βελτιώσουμε όλα αυτά που, έστω τα αδέρφια μας οι τούρκοι προκάλεσαν στην Ελλάδα να μείνει πίσω όλα αυτά τα χρόνια, όπως τεχνογνωσία, πολιτική, παιδεία, και όσα άλλα χρειάζονται για μια ομαλή και μη άδικη λειτουργεία μιας κοινωνίας. Όσα με άλλα λόγια βαριέται να φτιάξει ο χριστιανός ή άθεος έλληνας. Δεν με ενδιαφέρει να κάνω πόλεμο μαζί σου, αλλά αυτό δεν σημαίνει πως αν μου επιτεθείς φυσικά, δεν θα αμυνθώ, και σε παρακαλώ να μη μου επιτεθείς φυσικά, γιατί δεν είναι ούτε στο δικό σου συμφέρον, ούτε στο δικό μου, και ούτε σε αυτό της κοινωνίας μας που λέγεται Ελλάς. Τελικά, αυτό που είπα, είναι πως έλληνα, δεν κάνει κάποιον το τι θρησκεία θα διαλέξει, αλλά το πόσο αγαπάει την πατρίδα του την Ελλάδα, που εσύ προφανώς, μιας και δεν κάνεις κάτι για να καρποφορήσει, δεν την αγαπάς, και άρα, εσύ είσαι που δεν είσαι έλληνας, αλλά σε προσκαλώ να ξαναγίνεις, και να μαχηθείς μαζί μας για την καρποφόρηση αυτή. Επιλογή σου είναι, κάνε ό,τι θέλεις.
Πώς ήταν όλα μια χαρά πριν τους κεμαλικούς μετά από όλα όσα παραδέχεσαι ότι προκάλεσαν τα «αδέρφια» σας οι Τούρκοι στην Ελλάδα; Με ποιο δικαίωμα κατηγορείς τον χριστιανό ή άθεο Έλληνα ότι «βαριέται» να φτιάξει την πατρίδα του; Μήπως νομίζεις ότι το Ισλάμ θα λύσει ως δια μαγείας όλα τα προβλήματα της Ελλάδας; Γιατί τότε δεν το έχει κάνει μέχρι στιγμής σε οποιαδήποτε ισλαμική χώρα; Τουναντίον, μάλιστα. Δεν έχετε καταλάβει ακόμα ότι αυτή η αλαζονεία σας είναι που προκαλεί την εχθρική αντίδραση των υπολοίπων; Τέλος, με τι κριτήρια συμπεραίνεις ότι δεν κάνω κάτι για να «καρποφορήσει» η Ελλάδα; Μήπως επειδή δεν ασπάζομαι το Ισλάμ; Σοβαρολογείς τώρα;
Δεν είπα πως το Ισλάμ θα κάνει κάτι, γιατί ποτέ δεν μπορεί κάποιο άψυχο αντικείμενο να κάνει κάτι, είναι σαν να λές πως το τραπέζει θα φέρει την επανάσταση. Αυτοί που θα κάνουν την αλλαγή είναι αυτοί που δεν φοβούνται να την κάνουν και αυτοί που κοιτούν προς το καλύτερο, και όχι την δικιά τους κοιλίτσα και άντε των παιδιών τους. Και μη μου πείς πως κάνουν κάτι οι νυν έλληνες, γιατί θα με βάλεις να γελάσω, και είναι σοβαρή η συζήτηση.
Δεν σου είπα να ασπαστείς το Ισλάμ, αλλά να μας επιτρέψεις να είμαστε αυτό που είμαστε, και να λειτουργήσουμε ανάλογα, δηλαδή έλληνες μουσουλμάνοι που δεν κοιτάνε την πάρτη των εαυτών τους, αλλά όλου του έθνους, λόγο της προέλευσής τους απο αυτό.
Θα σου θυμίσω επίσης, πως αν εξαίρεσουμε τους τούρκους, με όλα τα υπόλοιπα Ισλαμικά κράτη, η Ελλάδα έχει εξαιρετικά καλές σχέσεις. Αυτό δεν το λέω για να αποδείξω κάτι. Απλά μη πιέζεις, γιατί όπως είπα, δεν είναι στο συμφέρον κανενός. Αντίθετα, οι καλές σχέσεις, λύνουν πρόβλήματα, πόσο μάλλον, όταν έχεις και εμάς ως μέσον. Εμάς εννοώ τους έλληνες μουσουλμάνους, που είναι συγγενείς σου στο αίμα και συγγενείς τους στην θρησκεία. Εκμεταλεύσουν ό,τι έχεις, για το καλύτερο της χώρας σου, και μη κατηγορείς ψευδός απο εδώ κι απο εκεί, γιατί αυτό μόνο προβλήματα θα μπορούσε να φέρει, και δεν έχεις συμφέρον στα προβλήματα, και αμα έχεις, θέλω να μου το εξηγήσεις. Τέλος, μη επιτρέπεις ένα πείσμα, εγωισμό και προκατάληψη, να σου θολώνει το μυαλό και να σε οδηγεί στο να μησείς τα αδέρφια σου. Δεν θέλω να καταλήξω να λέω πως ο αθεϊσμός και ο χριστιανισμός προκαλούν τους ανθρώπους να μησούν, και ούτε εσύ το θέλεις.
Πράγματι, απο αυτά που έχουμε γράψει, θα διαφωνήσω με τον όρο αλαζωνία, υπάρχει μια “υπεροψία” απο το μέρος μας. Αυτό που άλλοι θα έλεγαν “μη πέφτεις στο επίπεδό του” σε περίπτωση λογομαχίας. Δεν θεωρώ πως σου συμπεριφέρθηκε κανείς εδώ μέσα επιθετικά, και δεν σε επικυρώνει το γεγονός πως εσύ είσαι επιθετικός. Θέλω να σκεφτείς όσα είπες εδώ μέσα, και να κοιτάξεις να τα διορθώσεις. Αυτό δεν είναι απειλή, αλλά συμβουλή. Και όπως είπα, μην αφήνεις πείσμα και εγωισμό να σε θολώνουν.
Κοίτα να δεις φιλαράκο, δεν είσαι σε θέση να μου πεις ότι πρέπει να διορθώσω τα λεγόμενά μου. Αυτή είναι η άποψή μου, την οποία και καταθέτω χωρίς φόβο και χωρίς πάθος. Λες ότι με τα ισλαμικά κράτη έχουμε εξαιρετικές σχέσεις. Αλήθεια; Δεν είδα να μας υποστηρίζουν στα εθνικά μας θέματα. Τουναντίον, μάλιστα. Αν στην Τουρκία επικρατούσαν οι ισλαμιστές και ξέσπαγε πόλεμος με την Ελλάδα, εσύ με ποιον θα ‘σουνα; Θα σου υπαγόρευε ἠ όχι η θρησκεία σου να υπερασπιστείς τους μουσουλμάνους; Δεν σε ρωτάω τι θα έκανες αν ξέσπαγε πόλεμος τώρα γιατί θα μου πεις ότι μισείς το κεμαλικό καθεστώς όσο κι εγώ, αν και αμφιβάλλω τα μάλα ότι θα πολεμούσες για την Ελλάδα υπό οιεσδήποτε συνθήκες.
Όχι, φιλαράκο, δεν πιστεύω ότι βάζεις το συμφέρον της Ελλάδας πάνω απ’ όλα, διότι πολύ απλά δεν σου επιτρέπει κάτι τέτοιο η θρησκεία σου, η οποία δεν αναγνωρίζει καν την αξία του έθνους.
Η θρησκεία μου λέει πως σε αξία μετά Τον Θεό, πάει η μητέρα, και η μητέρα μου είναι η Ελλάδα. Και αν ξέσπαγε πόλεμος, φυσικά και θα υπερασπιζόμουν, όχι την Ελλάδα, αλλά την αδικημένη πολιτεία, όποια κι αν είναι αυτή, γιατί πράγματι, εκτώς απο έλληνας, είμαι και άνθρωπος, και σαν έλληνας είμαι υποχρεωμένος να εξασφαλίζω το δίκαιο στην Ελλάδα, ενώ σαν άνθρωπος, να εξασφαλίζω το δίκαιο στην ανθρωπότητα. Αν όμως η ελλάδα είναι σε πόλεμο, και δεν τον άρχισε αυτή, τότε φυσικά και θα ταχθώ υπέρ της. Και πίστεψέ με, σε όσα είπα, έχω τις πιο αγνές προθέσεις, και δεν λέω παρά με ειλικρίνεια την όλη αλήθεια. Απο εκεί και πέρα, αν πιστεύεις πως ο φιλαράκος δεν αξίζει να τον σεβαστείς, εντάξει, δικαίωμά σου, αλλά μη ξεχνάς πως εμείς αγγείλαμε για τη ύστερη ζωή, όπου ο καθείς αμοίβεται με ό,τι αξίζει.
Κακό πράγμα η άγνοια! Σκοτώνει…
Κακό πράγμα το …. μίσος! Θολώνει το μυαλό.
Και ο φανατισμός, άλλο τόσο, Μακεδόνα.
Έλληνας είναι τελικώς, αυτός που έχει Ελληνική συνείδηση και έχει την θέληση να θυσιαστεί για την Πατρίδα του, ανεξαρτήτως Θρησκείας και καταγωγής. Στον πόλεμο του 1821, δεν το γνωρίζετε, αλλά υπήρχαν Μουσουλμάνοι ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ που πολέμησαν για την Ελλάδα μας, εναντίον των Τούρκων. Το ξέρετε αυτό; Φυσικά όχι, γιατί μας τα κρύβουν αυτά. Πρέπει να είμαστε εχθροί, έστω και αν είμαστε από το ίδιο αίμα! Μην ακούτε τίποτα, αδέλφια μου Μουσουλμάνοι, Έλληνες.
Δεν ξέρουν τί λένε, τί κάνουν και τί θέλουν πραγματικά, αυτοί που θέλουν να σας αποπέμψουν από το Σώμα του Ελληνισμού. Ή μήπως το κάνουν εξ επήτηδες, για λόγους, προφανείς;…
Σε σέβομαι ως άνθρωπο αλλά δεν σε θεωρώ Έλληνα. Είναι άλλο πράγμα το ένα, άλλο το άλλο. Μην τα συγχέουμε. Όλοι οι άνθρωποι έχουν το δικαίωμα στην αξιοπρέπεια, και αυτό φυσικά είναι πέρα από τις εθνότητες και τις θρησκείες. Αλλά μιας και εσείς εγείρατε το θέμα της εθνικής ταυτότητας αυτοαποκαλούμενοι ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ μουσουλμάνοι, αισθάνθηκα ότι έπρεπε να εκφράσω την άποψή μου ότι πρόκειται για δύο έννοιες ασυμβίβαστες. Αφού το Ισλάμ εκτός από θρησκεία είναι και أمة, που μεταφράζεται ως «έθνος», γιατί εξακολουθείτε να θεωρείτε τους εαυτούς σας Έλληνες; Δεν αντιβαίνει τους νόμους της θρησκείας σας, που λέει ότι εθνικότητα σας είναι μόνο το Ισλάμ;
Aaaa. Tora katalava kala ti kapno fumars Macedona. You are not interested in any kind of peace or dialogue. That is why you will not even give me your hand in brotherhood nor your name. Well then, I will just call you Mut. Sto kato kato Mut, what does it matter what language one speaks or from what ethnic background he is? Can you tell me? A person who thinks like this is a very insecure individual for some reason or another. I bet you that superficially you even look like an Arab or a Turk. Most people from your area look like them. Is your background Pontian or Cappadocian too? Do you look in the miirror every morning and hate the fact that you look just like the people to the East of you and wish you didn’t? After all the “Turks” did rape your ancestors right? That is why we look like them. Isn’t this the excuse that we were taught to say when told by foreigners “Why do Greeks look so Middle Eastern?” Isn’t the monotonous reply of “well 400 years slavery what do you expect” the common answer. Is this why you have closed yourself in a cocoon in which you live in this fake little world where you have picked and chose, baptised and blessed what is “Greek”? AND WHAT FLIMSY AND SUPERFICIAL THINGS THIS WORLD OF YOURS CONTAINS!……pork souvlaki, wine and NAKED STATUES! What is there that has ANY depth in that world of yours? Any depth at all? Is there any love for humanity in that world? Is there even a heart or a soul? Is it such a paper piniata? But even for the superficial attributes of that world of yours let me educate you a little on some things you do not know or might not realize. Do you consider Fustanella and fesi, traditional “Greek” coffee, tsiftetelia, zeibekika, komboloyia, baklava, kataif, imam bayildi, musaka, bouzouki, the musiki dromoi of “Greek” music, the words besa, musafiri, hairi, halali etc. Greek? Most of your country men do. If you do as well, then you have a BIG problem because they are NOT “Greek”. Why does it matter to you who is Greek and who is not. We are ALL humans. If a person gets a life threatening illness or gets hospitalized he will not call on Greece, Turkey or US, or what have you, to save him. Nor will he be thinking of these really silly, stupid and very very EXTREMELY idiotic chauvinistic arguments you have brought up Macedonian. My name is not Greek……big deal! What the heck is Greece and what the heck is Arabia and Turkey! Are you that close minded? I want you to realize that this mentality of yours is a REAL TERRORIST and a threat to humanity. This chauvinistic, racist, biased outlook of life you have poses the biggest threat peace. You will NEVER build any bridges of understanding between different people. The attitude you have, you probably do not even care to. Get a life my friend and learn to love your brethren in humanity. You may claim your ancestors might have had an excuse to hate Muslims, but YOU DO NOT. And yes Islam tells us to deal justly with non-Muslims. It goes so far that our Prophet told us that whoever harms a dhimmi or commits injustce against him/her, that our Prophet will tesify against US (Muslims) on the day of judgement. If I chose as a Muslim to disobey that in this life, I cannot escape the consequences in the next. Now in what book, constitution or creed of yours can you GUARANTEE a Muslim at least some justice? Man go get a life.
Thank you for proving my point nicely. You are not Greek, you are Muslim, end of story. “What does it matter what language one speaks or from what ethnic background he is?” Exactly. There is no such distinction in Islam. But YOU are the one calling yourself a GREEK Muslim. If you just called yourself a MUSLIM and nothing else, I wouldn’t take issue. As for my looks, no, I don’t look like an Arab or Turk. I have rather fair skin and hair, in fact. And no, the multiple prohibitions to which you subject your daily life are not my concern, as I will continue to enjoy all aspects of my Greek culture whatever you choose to do. My major concern is the LACK OF FREEDOM OF THOUGHT in Islam, which causes you to act so aggressively and defensively against anyone who dares to question your religion. It is a problem the entire world now faces, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.
You say that your “prophet” told you to deal justly with non-Muslims, but you only mention dhimmis. Dhimmis are only those “people of the Book” (Jews or Christians) who live under Muslim rule and pay a head tax to the Caliph, am I right? An agnostic or atheist like me who lives in Dar al-Harb, not Dar al-Islam, has no rights at all in Islam. You can legitimately blow me up on the tube, can’t you?
As for calling me a mutt, you do realize the delicious irony in that, don’t you? That’s what our ancestors used to call their Muslim oppressors. Dogs.
Για ποια άγνοια μιλάς, Πιέρρα; Θεωρείς ότι έχω άγνοια των πραγμάτων; Αν όντως το πιστεύεις αυτό, είμαι υποχρεωμένος να διαφωνήσω κάθετα. Έχω αποδείξει ότι γνωρίζω αρκετά καλά το αντικείμενο, με τεκμηριωμένες απόψεις που βασίζονται σε στοιχεία, όχι σε μαλακιούλες του τύπου «όλοι το ίδιο είμαστε». Κι όμως, δεν είμαστε. Στην πραγματικότητα υπάρχει τεράστιο χάσμα μεταξύ μας. Αυτό δεν σημαίνει δεν είμαστε όλοι άνθρωποι, ή ότι δεν έχουμε όλοι το ίδιο δικαίωμα στη ζωή και την ευτυχία, να εξηγούμεθα. Αυτό είναι τόσο προφανές ώστε να μη χρειάζεται συζήτηση. Εννοείται ότι δεν μισώ κανέναν λόγω του θρησκεύματός του. Τις θρησκείες όμως έχω κάθε δικαίωμα να τις κρίνω και να τις κατακρίνω. Εδώ συζητάμε αποκλειστικά την έννοια της εθνικής ταυτότητας. Θα μπορούσα να δεχθώ ότι τα άτομα αυτά είναι μουσουλμάνοι ελληνικής καταγωγής. ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ όμως σίγουρα όχι.
(This thread will be closed soon if there is no real purpose to it as we are digressing from the topic.)
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I’m cool with leaving it at 69 posts. 😉
Damn, I just ruined it. Hehe.
First of all, I did not say mutt, I said Mut. They are two different things with different meanings.
Yes, Macedona I am Muslim. Al-HAMDULILLAH. Dhoxa to Dhimiourgo twn Pantwn! Yes I am Muslim FIRST. And yes, that is only what REALLY matters to me. I am from Greece and my roots are Epirot Tsam——-a descendant of Suliots who chose Islam as their way of life. No one can deny me any part of this identity, not you or anybody, and I cannot deny that this identity. Now, you have free will to think of me the way you want (then m’kaiyet karfi), and I have free will to think of you the way I want. But legally, I have a Greek Tautotita and as much as you pout, cry and jump up and down, TOUGH LUCK my friend! Let me put it to you this way….In YOUR country I am Greek. Now That is the end of the story and there is no ands, ifs or buts about that.
You are right when you meant there is no ethnic distinctions among it’s adherents in Islam. Might I add, there is as well no racial and class distinctions in Islam. Actually, it is a sin for Muslims to think otherwise. The only distinctions made in Islam are in reference to things such as physical differences that we can sense with our sensory organs, believers and non-believers, practicing and non-practicing believers, and righteous and non-righteous believers. Al-Hamdulillah again, Islam is way above these mental diseases such as nationalism, tribalism, racism, and their likes that continue to plague every man-made ideology which close the masses in boxes of ignorance. This is one testimony of the Superiority of Islam. You can be from Turkish, Greek, Arabic, African, English or Chinese background and get all along because you have one purpose and one goal in life…..doing the pleasure of Allah. And your creed is ONE…submission to that Creator and Sustainer of All. As far as YOU taking exception to that and me calling myself a Greek Muslim, again, the MU kaiyet karfi. More power to ya…The sun is probably still gonna come up tomorrow, sooner or later me and you WILL die and whatever we want to think of each other will pass away with us!
You claim to have fair hair and skin. Well, you do not look like 90% of “Greeks” then. MAYBE you do not belong to that place or are a foreign/different element that appeared there. That is not “typically Greek”. Has that ever passed your mind? There are many Arvanit (Albanian – speaking) and Aroman-Vlach (Romanian speaking) as well as Slav-speaking people who live in your area of Greece (mine too) who are fair in skin color and characteristics. The majority of them are actually like that. Take the Pomaks for example, they are almost ALL very fair. But I do not think that you consider them “Greek”??? I am just telling you the reality. For me it does not really matter what YOU look like, but since you have in previous posts seemed to ‘canonize’ certain things and acts as “Greek”, be fair and do it on human physical characteristics as well. And if you try to come back by saying you look like the “original Greeks”, well then you must accept that the rest 90% of your countrymen(?) are a mixed bunch of “Greekized” peoples, but not “PURE Greek”. If through all your condemnation of Muslims and Islam, and all your praise of anything and everything “Greek” you cannot claim or prove any type of pureness for the ideology, way you think, or the object you are claiming Greek exclusivity on, you have wasted your time typing and trying to defend/prove an impure cause. If this was your purpose for coming to our site, you have defeated your purpose. And now HERE I WILL MAKE A DISTINCTION. Islam claims pureness of its message to mankind AND can back its claim. Also, as for me, I look like that typical 90%.
You claim in post #67 that our Muslim daily life prohibitions are not your concern, but your previous posts do prove otherwise. Quite a few of your posts actually deal (albeit lightly and with much twisted misinformation, as was mentioned by other posters a few times) with such issues. I guess, alla les ki alla kans. Telos pantwn, Go ahead and enjoy your “Greek” culture whatever chopped and patched-up culture made to your whims that you consider that to be. Nobody is stopping you or really cares to stop you. I know you wanted to be seen and heard….to get some attention. You came to our site and in our Islamic hospitality we welcomed you. We dealt with you fairly and honestly even though you were a rude and attackative guest. After all you came to us, we did not come to you. Hmmmm. Might there be a hint of instigation here??? Thank you anyways, all you have done is just confirmed once again what the Quran tells us about the unbelievers who hate us and never will be satisfied with us.
You also have the face to call US the aggressors and the forbidders of freedom of thought when you yourself try to deny the very right of others to call themselves what they want. And you do not have any position of power. What would happen to Muslims under you if you ever assumed any postion of authority over them? And answer that honestly to yourself. You are free to think whatever you want in Islam and under Islamic rule but you are NOT free to act as you wish all the time. That exists in EVERY society/country on Earth. For example, in Greece there is a limit to how fast I am free to speed on the road. ALL societies differ but have rules and laws ounishable if broken. And let me give you a small list of aggressions against Muslims just to refresh your memory: Crusades against Islam, Massacre of Spanish Muslim Moors by the Catholics, Post War World I & II colonizations and genocides of Muslim lands by Europeons, Massacre of the Muslims of Morea in 1821-23, Massacre of the Tsamidhes in 1913, 1920’s and 1940″s by Greece, the genocide of 5 million Muslims in the Balkans from 1820’s-1920’s, Massacre of Kurdish and eastern anatolian Muslims by Russians, Armenians and Pontians in late 1800’s-1915, Two genocides against the Muslims of Chechnya by the Russians, Massacres of millions of Muslims in the regions to Uzbekistan, Crimea, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan, Kyrgistan, Turkmenistan, Ingushetia etc. in the Russians endeavors to force communism on them, Genocides of Bosnia and Kossova, War on Afghanistan by USA and allies, War on Iraq by USA, Greek massacres of Muslims in Cyprus from 1960’s through 1974, Attack on the Phillipino Muslims by US in 2002, Missile attacks on Sudan, Israeli slow genocide of Palestinians, US attacks on Lebanon, Israeli airstrikes on Iran, US attack on Libya and on and on. These are just some aggressions against Muslims. And you want to blame the victim? Shame on you. SHAME on you. The proof is in the pudding. We AND you know who the real aggressors are. I have witnessed personal aggression against me because of my faith. Have you? You just sit back in your your chair and spill out on the keyboard whatever hate your heart can pour out. I want to ask another question. What have we done to you personally an you have so much contempt for us? The entire world is in turmoil not because of Islam, but in spite of it. Islam or as you call it Islamic fundamentalism is not running the world by far right now. The world is not under Sharia Law. Capitalism and Darwinism have been riding the wave for over a 100 years now. The demons these ideologies have unleashed are the true threat wreaking havoc around the entire world–money, power and greed. You should be smart enough to know that.
On Dhimme you are partially right. If you had a little deeper knowledge on this issue and done extensive research you would have had a better picture of it. Dhimmi are PEOPLE OF CONTRACT (any non-Muslim). Ahl Al-Kitab are Christains and Jews which can also fall under Dhimmi. Not all dhimmi paid jizye, but most did. There were jizye exceptions for dhimme in a whole variety of situations–the poor, the fighters protecting the borders of the Islamic state (buffer zones), special treaties etc.. Most dhimme paid the tax of jizye but were not allowed/exempt to pay the zakat tax which was obligatory ONLY on the Muslims capable to pay it. Imagine if the Muslims had to pay the zakat and the dhimme did not have to pay anything. They would be seen as freeloafers and a burden by the Muslims. To prevent any disgruntlement on the part of the Muslims, the dhimme paid the tax and received full rights of citizenship except the right to lead the state. So you would be covered under Dhimmi if you are a Christian, Hindu, Atheist or whatever. If you are an Atheist, you are not however Ahl Al-Kitab.
Concerning rights in Darul Islam and Darul Harb . I do not know where you have come up with the conclusion that Islam gives you no rights if you are a person living in Dar ul Harb. You must have been reading some serious orientalist propaganda junk. I am sorry to say. If you knew just a little bit about this particular topic you would know that even the trees and plants have rights in Darul Harb from the aggression of the Muslims. In Battle Muslims cannot kill unarmed civilians of any type. We cannot cut down trees for no reason, or ruin crops. Only those who fight you, we are able to fight. Another word for Darul Harb that you forgot to mention is the word Darul Kufr. When Muslims are intreaties with the non Muslim lands these lands are called Darul Kufr. Islam says that as long as the message of Islam is not hindered by lands considered Darul Kufr then their is no fighting them. When Muslims made contracts, treaties or covenants with these lands the mainstipulations included the free practice of faith for Muslims without hindrance who live or work in Darul Kufr. The Muslims there had to obey the basic laws of the respective lands as long as their basic faith and human rights were not trampled upon. In Islam we believe that if you take one life unjustly, it is as if you have killed all humanity, and if you save one it is as if you saved all humanity.
I think my friend that is enough said for you. I propbably have wasted more time than I needed with you. But Allah knows best. Maybe he will open your eyes, your mind and heart and take you out of these darknesses that plague you. Please do not be jealous that our faith and brotherhood is real and built upon a true and pure foundation. You are welcome to join and give peace to your turbulent soul. Islam is after all not my idioktisia. It is your birthright as well as mine.
Thanks for participating in the discussion.
This thread is CLOSED.