Q. I’m simply curious as to why a Greek would choose a religion that is so antithetical to his or her own culture. Beyond that, there are more general questions about Islam and its treatment of non-believers that I, as a non-believer, would like answered. Perhaps you can help.
A. Thank you for asking about our religion and coming forth with your question. I will answer the question based on my own experience as a Greek convert. I know this is a really long post, but please bear with me.
(Special note to the questioner: Before we start, I have a special request, actually two. First, I need you to forget about your culture for just a few minutes and think openmindely and objectively. Second, I would like you to make a prayer. I know you wouldn’t normally agree to this since you are an agnostic, but please, just try it. It’s not going to hurt. Turn to the one who created the heavens and the earth (whoever you think that is and even if it’s ‘unknown’) and say, ‘The one who created the heavens and the earth, if you have the power, strength and knowledge to create these, then you surely have the power to show me the truth. If you are out there, guide me to the truth, whatever that may be’ I know this might sound insane to you, but please trust me on this one. )
I’m serious, just try it.
For me, it all started when I was very young (about 7 years old, actually!) when I first started to contemplate on what the purpose of life is. I’ve never really understood it but growing up, it would sometimes become a burning question that I did not have an answer to. Without an answer, I would then often drift into “go with the flow” mode, where the purpose of life is the ol’ get a good education, get a good paying job, get married, by a house and a nice car…. and then, well, die.
I first met Muslims in my university classes. Before that, they were always around me but I just never noticed. I honestly naively thought that the entire world was full of Christians only! Can you believe it? I thought it was a really strange thing that anyone would believe in some wierd god, oppress their women and speak some wierd language but I was still respectful to them because I felt sorry for them.
Later our discussions transformed into full-fledge debates at the student cafeteria. I was their staunch opponent. I started becoming more and more practising as a Greek Orthodox and going back to the church, perhaps because I felt that I had to defend my religion – everything that I was raised with.
Without that much knowledge about Islam, it was harder to convince them that they were dead wrong, so when no one was looking, I would sneak into the library and try to find some books about Islam. What I found were some books that looked like they were published 1000 years ago – they were so ancient, it seemed! So, then I started to search online as well. I needed some substantial evidence to prove that they were wrong.
Then everything changed. I made a prayer that God show me the truth. I wanted to know and I was so sincere in that prayer.
I was absolutely sure that the truth would be Christianity and that the Muslims will soon find out but God had another plan for me.
When no one was looking, I started to step back from my preconceived notions and started to think objectively for the first time in my life. Why are Muslims so strict about not associating Jesus (peace be upon him) as God? Don’t they know that we need Jesus to be a salvation for our sins?
I went to visit our local priest and asked him a lot of questions, especially about the trinity. I finally had the guts to nonchalantly bring up the word ‘Islam’ (for all those Greeks out there, you know how hard that would be!) but as soon as I uttered that word, his eyes immediately bulged out of his head and he strongly suggested that I stay away from those bad people. However, the problem was that he didn’t answer my questions with proper answers. It was all a big run-around.
That just left me on my own to find out. Slowly, with more and more research and evidence, my heart was realizing the truth of one God without partners but my mind was opposing it with all its might. I just couldn’t even dream of leaving everything known to me – my religion, my culture, my family, my rituals and celebrations- behind.
Then it happened in my bedroom. I was finishing up some more reading on the subject and contemplating heavily if Jesus is really God or not. All of a sudden, within a few seconds, I felt something go through me very quickly, as if it was some fresh air or spirit washing out my heart and then BOOM (!), automatically, I felt this massive, I mean massive, sense of tranquility and almost said outoud, ‘Jesus is not God!’.
Then immediately after that, I thought, ‘How in the world am I going to tell my parents that I am Muslim?’
I know what I am writing is going to be extremely difficult for some to believe. No, I was not possessed by some devil or spirit. Actually, I found when speaking to other converts that some of them related the same thing to me (before I even mentioned my story to them). Now, after knowing more about Islam, I do believe that it was God answering my initial prayer and it was, perhaps, an angel, under the instruction of God, who cleansed my soul of the prior disbelief.
So, this is a super long post – sorry for that- so to conclude, I would like to answer your question, why would a Greek choose a religion so antithetical to his or her own culture? Well, for a few reasons.
First, it wasn’t my intention to do so. In fact, it was the complete opposite but in my search for the truth, I found that it was that God is one without any partners. I later found the answer to my question of what the purpose of life is explicitly mentioned beautifully in the Qur’an.
Second, after seeing all this truth, my priorties in life changed drastically. I no longer was going with the flow for worldly success only. I now had (and have) a primary goal of reaching paradise so whatever I can do to take me there, I will do. If that is to leave some of my cultural aspects that contradict worshipping one God without associating partners, then I will do so.
Third, becoming a Muslim does not mean I forfeit my culture. In fact, Islam embraces diversity of all cultures. For example, I have lots of friends who are Pakistani, Somalian, Arab, Greek, Bosnian, Canadian, British, Chinese, Indian, Italian, Spanish, etc who are Muslim. Islam embraces culture and actually Islamic law is very dynamic in the sense that it changes with the people, culture, customs, generations, technology etc.
This is why we say we are Greek Muslim. I hope that I have answered your question fully and that it has given you greater understanding of us. I pray that the creator of the heavens and the earth show you the truth.
I hope that we can create a discussion based on sincerity, honesty and respect. I look forward to receiving your top 3-5 questions about the other aspects of Islam you have.
My impression of what you have written is that you are a person who needs all the answers to be expressly articulated to him or her (I don’t know if you’re male or female, my apologies). You’re the kind of person who needs religion in order to function properly in his or her life, so you chose the most hardcore religion out there and went with it. You did far more than simply reject Jesus as “God”. I did that too, but I rejected the entire notion of “God” in the process. I did that after researching the history of “God”, and discovering that he started out as nothing more than a Jewish deity. Consequently, he should be regarded as no different from the gods of any other culture. As a Greek, I realized that I’m under no obligation to venerate a foreign deity. Why the Jewish god? Why not the Hindu gods, for example?
You, on the other hand, “submitted” to Allah, as Islam commands you to do, so you wouldn’t have to keep asking yourself the burning questions that kept you awake at night. I’m not like that. I like asking myself questions, even if I know I can never find out the answers. I can live with uncertainty; life is full of it.
As for my other questions, they mainly relate to how Islam is applied in the real world and how it affects non-Muslims like me. Why does my word not count against that of a Muslim? Why am I considered ritually unclean, an infidel and a Harbi whose life has no value and may therefore be legitimately disposed of in the name of Islam? Why should Muslims be allowed to build a mosque in Athens when Greeks are not allowed to step foot in Mecca or Medina, let alone build a Greek Orthodox church there? Why should innocent people in the West live in fear of being blown up by Muslims on a plane, train or bus? Why should the West tolerate Muslims when non-Muslims are systematically persecuted in places like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan?
True, I like millions out there, I need certainty in my life when it comes to questions like, “Why am I here on this earth?”, “How did I get here?”, “Who created me?”, “Who created the heavens and the earth?”, “Is this all a game, or are we one day going to have something else after we die?”, and “What’s the point of acting morally or ethical because if I don’t, so what, will I ever be punished for it?” etc.
Macedonian, have you ever had these types of questions run through your mind? Do you feel comfortable not knowing the answers to these questions?
(I will, God willing, answer the rest of your posts soon but I was curious to find out the answer to my questions above first. p.s. I’m a female.)
Do you wear the hijab or niqab? And how do you feel about women who don’t? Are you one of four wives?
Macedonian, you are really good at answering questions with questions.
I don’t see how the questions in post #3 are relevant to the discussion at all but I will answer them, God willing when I answer the rest.
Now here are my questions again:
Macedonian, have you ever had these types of questions run through your mind? Do you feel comfortable not knowing the answers to these questions?
Yes, and yes.
Thank you for answering my questions.
Now, to move on.
“…so you chose the most hardcore religion out there and went with it. ”
“Why the Jewish god? Why not the Hindu gods, for example?”
Like I said in my original post, I wasn’t looking to follow Islam. Actually, I was a stanch opponent of it – you can say I was like you in your comments to Islam and your views of Greek nationalism. I was fighting my soul not to enter this way of life but God had other plans for me.
I don’t believe in the ‘Jewish’ god as you are saying. I believe in the one God that created Jews, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, animals, plants, food etc. from the beginning of time until the end of time. That is the God that created the first human being and prophet, Adam (peace be upon him) so it wouldn’t be accurate to say that it’s a Jewish god. Also, as far as I know, every other religion does believe in this One God as I do… their problem is that the associate multiple gods along with Him.
Macedonian, here’s my next question (and please answer it):
What will happen to you when you die?
I’ll go straight to hell? Is that what you want me to say? All I know for certain is that I’ll rot like any other living organism after death. That includes you. Do you know for sure where you’re going? Is there absolutely no hint of doubt in your mind?
The reason he is a Jewish god is because the Jews were the first to worship him. You say he created everything and therefore predates the Jews but that’s just your belief, not historical fact. In reality, the Jews and Christians adopted many of the myths of older cultures, such as the Persians and Greeks. Ultimately, religion is a man-made invention, and there is no serious reason why I should believe one group of people (you, for example) over another. All are equally clueless.
“The reason he is a Jewish god is because the Jews were the first to worship him. ”
Prophet Adam (peace be upon him), the first human being, was the first to worship God. The Jews lived thousands of years later.
“I’ll go straight to hell? Is that what you want me to say?”
No, not at all. I just wanted to know your belief in this matter. Yes, I agree that our body will rot in the grave. But our souls will either go to heaven or hell after the Day of Judgement, and that includes you.
I am 100000000% certain of it not because I claim to be arrogant to know but because the One who created the heavens and the earth (the mightest creation) has revealed that to mankind.
My next question:
If you do not believe anything will happen after you die and you will not be taken to account for what good or bad you did in this life, then what’s the point of doing good deeds? If you are not going to get punished for let’s say killing, stealing, oppressing others, insulting, swearing, treating others badly, then why would you not go ahead and do that?
In other words, for example, what’s stopping you from robbing a bank if you knew you can get away with it?
But you can’t get away with it. If you harm others, inevitably they will try to do the same to you. You don’t need religion to tell you that; it’s common sense. You say “Prophet Adam” was the first to worship “God”. That’s from the Jewish Bible or Old Testament, isn’t it? Where’s the actual historical proof of his existence, verified by a neutral (non-Jewish) source? It’s funny, though. You Muslims despise Israel and the Jews, yet you follow their mythology to the letter.
Who said I hate Jews? Jews and Christians are People of the Book to us because our (original) scriptures all come from the same source: One God.
I wasn’t quoting from the Old testament; I was quoting from the Qur’an:
[3:59]The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.
[7:11]And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, “Prostrate to Adam”, and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate.
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People have gotten away with very bad deeds. You didn’t answer my question,
“If you knew you would get away with it 100%, would you rob a bank (or anything else like that)?
I’ve already answered your question. Bad deeds breed more bad deeds, and that applies whether you follow a religion or not. I’m not a Christian and I’m not a Jew. Where does that leave me in your belief system? Do I have the right to exist?
That still doesn’t answer the specific question at hand.
Let me rephrase it. If someone does something bad and no one sees him doing it, will he be judged for that? If so, by who? In other words, Where will be the justice in someone committing a criminal act if no one catches him?
As for your belief system, I just see you as someone who doesn’t believe in God. It’s up to God to keep you living or to cause you to die. It’s not up to me or anyone else.
The justice will be in his tortured conscience, and the fact that one day he *will* be caught. On the other hand, we have Muslims committing criminal acts in the name of Allah on a daily basis. Their religion justifies murder, in their minds. What do you have to say about that?
I have a wonderful response for you about what you mentioned about Muslims ‘committing criminal acts in the name of Allah’ and, God willing, I can answer it at a later time if you’d like. But I don’t want to get side-tracked to our main topic here.
Ok, so let’s assume for a second that if someone does something bad and no one will find out about it, that his only punishment would be his tortured conscience like you said.
We do have to admit that there are people out there who have committed criminal acts without being caught. Let’s face it. That’s reality.
So, let’s say for example, Mr. X murders 10 people and doesn’t get caught (let’s say that someone else gets the blame for it and that he got off free).
I have some questions for you:
1. Is this fair, knowing that he will not be punished?
2. If he gets that ‘tortured conscience’ feeling, who put that feeling in him? Or, who made people feel bad when they do something wrong? In other words, who put this ‘internal clock’ of guilty feelings when they do something wrong if they are not going to get punished for it? And please don’t tell me Darwin.
3. Human beings always like to weigh pros and cons so let’s say Mr. X wants to steal something worth $5000. He thinks to himself, my chances of getting caught are very slim and even if I do get caught, I will just have a 1 week jail sentence, no big deal. So, he goes and steals it, doesn’t get caught and enjoys the $5000 item. He doesn’t feel guilty at all and has no tortured conscience. He tells his friends about how he pulled it off. They like the idea since it’s so easy and they do the same. Then they tell their friends, who tell their friends and all of a sudden, stealing is very common in the entire country (it actually is here in the West). Where’s the justice in this case?
4. All people have that internal clock, but some people are just committed so many criminal or bad acts that they just don’t have any remorse anymore whatsoever. What is their punishment? Would it be fair?
I hope that you can answer my four questions, one by one.
1. Fair or not, it happens. 3. And, believe it or not, being religious does not make one immune to committing crimes. I have a friend who is an Iraqi Christian refugee. He tells me that stealing, specifically looting, was very common in Iraq after the downfall of Saddam Hussein. Among the looters’ most prized booty were copies of the Koran, as they were obviously devout Muslims. It didn’t stop them, did it?
2. As for why humans are inculcated with a sense of morality, it probably has something to do with the survival instinct. From an evolutionary point of view, we needed a bare minimum of harmony so we wouldn’t eliminate each other in an orgy of revenge killings. All I know is that it seems to be independent of religion or lack thereof. In fact, many more people are killed or maimed by religious fanatics than by agnostics or atheists, especially in the Muslim world, wouldn’t you agree?
4. Again, I don’t see how religion helps in this regard. Quite the contrary, in fact. Do Islamic fundamentalists have any remorse for 9/11? Did the Catholics have any remorse for the Crusades or the Inquisition? Did the Ottomans have any remorse for the Genocides they committed against the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks of Anatolia? The list goes on and on…
Wow, Macedonian, you really know how to change the subject with loaded posts. Although, I would have lots to say to answer your post, let’s just stick to the topic at hand first.
1. “Fair or not, it happens.”
We’ve already established that it happens. But both you and I know that it’s not fair and definitely not due justice. There HAS to be justice in every single act someone does, big or small, otherwise, there would be anarchy. I think you would agree.
2. “it probably has something to do with the survival instinct. ”
Probably? Are you not sure? I said please don’t bring me Darwin theory… as far as I know, Darwin never claimed internal feelings were evolutionized as well. He may claim some wierd theory that our physical bodies evolved from apes, but there is no way that he can claim the same with the feeling of guilt and remorse kicking in when we do something wrong.
3. and 4. I didn’t ask for examples of what people do. We are talking about religion here and only laymen bring up examples of what followers of that religion do. Religion is always based on its scriptures – not its followers.
You didn’t answer #4. If someone commits crimes continuously and then doesn’t feel that torture conscience as you said would be the only punishment, then would it be fair that they have no punishment?
Please don’t take offense to what I’m saying. We need to establish what happens to those people who commit criminal acts or even sins. There must be a system of justice and fairness. But it seems, from what you have said, that in the agnostic world, there is no system for justice.
In the secular world, there is a thing called the justice system. You know, courts and judges. It’s not Sharia, so you may not even recognize its authority in the state you inhabit, but it does the job.
What do you mean by “only laymen bring up examples of what followers of that religion do”? I don’t have a religion, therefore by definition I can only be a “layman”. Are you a cleric? How is that possible, being a woman?
To me, the most important thing is how religion is applied in the real world, not all the warm and fuzzy abstract stuff in the scriptures which bores me to death. Yes, I will judge Islam by what Muslims say and do, whether you like it or not.
Ok, so how does this secular justice system deal with Question #4 (which you still haven’t answered, by the way)?
In order for a system to be truly just, every single wrongful act *must* be accounted for and treated with due justice proportionally.
There is a very basic rule amongst formal religious debates – religion is as good as its scriptures. Anyone who brings what the followers of that religion does is considered a very, very weak argument, and that you pretty much lost the debate. This is well-known amongst scholars or religion intellectualists or specialists.
“To me, the most important thing is how religion is applied in the real world, not all the warm and fuzzy abstract stuff in the scriptures which bores me to death. ”
This is exactly why I love studying about Islam as opposed to studying about Christianity.
Looking forward to reading your answer on Question #4 (asking for the third time now. For some reason – not sure why – it seems like you don’t like answering questions.)
But I’m not a scholar or a religious expert. Are you? I’m just an average Greek guy who isn’t afraid to express his views on religion and politics like most people seem to be these days, terrified that they might be called “racists” or whatever. Do you only converse with religious authorities? What about the remaining 99.9999% of the planet? I honestly have no interest in discussing the virtues of Islam compared to any other belief system. As an agnostic I think all religions are equally off the mark. The only reason I’m “picking on” Islam here is because that is the religion you profess. I do much the same vis-à-vis Christians, with the exception that I think their beliefs are slightly more compatible with being Greek. To put it simply, Christians fought for Greece’s freedom from the Muslim Ottoman Empire, whereas a Muslim would be ostracized from his religion for doing so. I don’t associate with any Jews to do the same to them, but I would given the chance.
I thought the answer to Question 4 was obvious. If someone repeatedly commits criminal acts, eventually the criminal justice system will catch up with him/her.
So, do you admit then that there are some people on planet earth that have committed a wrongful act and didn’t get caught by the secular justice system?
I’m sure there are millions in the past but I’m asking you if there is at least one person in the history of time that *ever* got away with no punishment.
Of course, but how does believing in an omniscient “God” who will punish him in the afterlife help his victims in the here and now? Should we just do away with the criminal justice system altogether and simply rely on “God” to punish people after they die?
BREAKTHROUGH: we actually agree on this point then that the secular judicial system is not perfect.
I am not suggesting that do away with the criminal justice system. I am suggesting that there is a perfect solution out there and here it is:
(Are you ready to be openminded? Let the one who created the heavens and the earth to open your heart to receiving this information below:)
“All that they do is noted in (their) Books (of Deeds). Every matter, small and great, is on record.” (Qur’an, 54:52-53)
“On that Day mankind shall issue in scatterings to see their deeds. Whosoever has done an atom’s weight of good shall see it, and whosoever has done an atom’s weight of evil shall see it.” (Qur’an, 99: 6-8)
This means that we all have a book of our deeds for every single act, good or bad, that we do and it will be shown to us on the Day of Judgement. We will be taken to account for it and rewarded for the good deeds and punished for the bad deeds.
Please note that if we repent for our bad deeds (and there are certain steps to do this, not just feel bad and then commit the act again), then our bad deeds will be erased.
See, there is one more element we need to discuss. When I know that I will be judged heaviliy for every single wrongful act that I do, I will be very, very careful to not commit a wrongful act. And even when I do (because all humans are created to sin), then I will be quick to repent in the proper way so that my bad deed can be erased.
But what about a person who doesn’t believe in this system? He can easily commit many wrongful acts – many criminal acts – without worry because if he doesn’t get caught, there is no punishment on him. Even if he does get caught, he will always weigh the pros and cons (like I mentioned in Question #3).
I know right now this will be very hard for you to accept, but please think objectively here; which judicial system is perfect?
(Don’t let your mind take over what your heart is feeling.)
So why do so many devout Muslims commit so many unspeakable crimes against other human beings? The way I see it, it’s the Muslims especially, followed by the Christians and Jews, who are doing most of the killing and maiming, not the atheists or agnostics. Not to say they didn’t in the past – the Communists and Nazis, for example – but they were squarely defeated and are no longer a threat to humanity.
That’s a valid question. I’m going to give you the short version of the answer.
1. We already established that a religion cannot be based on its followers.
There are many reasons for this. a) God is perfect but humans are designed to sin, so if a person makes a minor or major sin, does that reflect back on God? No. b) I can go on for a long time about other people, like Christians, for example that commit crimes (like Timothy McBay for example or Catholic priests who molest children etc.) but that does not reflect back on Christianity. The only valid proof for what a religion is based on is its scripture.
2. It’s not logical to steretoype 1.5 billion people based on what 10-20 Muslims may (or may not) have done.
This is the same for agnostics and atheists. I can sit here and say all agnostics or atheists are violent, aggressive, rude, vulgar people who have no manners whatsoever and only ask loaded questions that have false statements in them. But I won’t stereotype an entire people based on a few interactions I have had with you or others.
3. Depends on your definition of ‘devout Muslims’.
What’s your definition of ‘devout’? I think we have opposite definitions here. In a nutshell, this is our definition of devout people:
“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted.” (Quran, 49:13)
In the eyes of Muslims, people who commit acts of terror or major criminal acts are not devout Muslims whatsoever. In fact, for many, many years, all scholars and Islamic organizations that I know (and I mean thousands of them) have openly made public statements that they strongly condemn these acts of terror and Islam does not support it whatsoever. Unfortunately, this type of news doesn’t get into mainstream media at all, because as you may know, entire governments have a very big agenda to make Muslims look like terrorists and obviously this piece of news doesn’t fit with their agenda.
So, to tie this back into the perfect justice system we were talking about, everybody will get due justice for their good or wrongful acts proportionally. If they don’t get it in this life, they will surely get it in the hereafter.
Are you convinced yet that it’s obvious there must be One God who created the heavens and the earth?
(Don’t let your mind take over your what your heart is saying.)
“Are you a cleric? How is that possible, being a woman?”
No, I am not a cleric. I am a layman also who strives to learn more and more everyday through critical thinking, studying and observing.
There are thousands, if not millions, of Muslim women like me and many of them know much more than me in religious matters.
However, when it comes to religion, we know the only valid evidence is to go back to revelation of the scriptures.
“God is perfect but humans are designed to sin, so if a person makes a minor or major sin, does that reflect back on God? No.” Oh, but it does. If the people who believe in “God” are so flawed, their beliefs must be too. That’s because for me, “God” exists only in the imagination of those who believe in him. And they’re not doing a very good job of marketing the idea to the rest of us, trust me.
“In the eyes of Muslims, people who commit acts of terror or major criminal acts are not devout Muslims whatsoever.” But the people committing these acts define *themselves* as devout Muslims. No offence, but who are you to tell them they are not? I’ve heard that argument so many times that it’s beginning to sound tedious. “Islam is a religion of peace, the fundamentalists are not real Muslims.” They would argue the opposite. Only they are the real Muslims as they are the ones actively waging jihad and “defending” Islam against the infidels. Why should I believe you over them? Simply put, you have the “tiny minority” of violent Muslims pitted against the peaceful majority. But both strains identify as Muslims.
Yes, you can stereotype agnostics or atheists on the basis of your tense interaction with me if you so choose. But my being “rude” or “vulgar” is hardly comparable to planting a bomb on a train in Madrid, is it? “All scholars and Islamic organizations that I know (and I mean thousands of them) have openly made public statements that they strongly condemn these acts of terror and Islam does not support it whatsoever.” I’m sure I could find just as many quotes from Islamic clerics calling for violence against the infidels. Even Sheikh Ali Gomaa, Grand Mufti of Egypt, widely considered one of the most “moderate” voices in the Islamic world, has said “…it is permitted to kill him, because he is a Harbi and the Harbi spreads corruption throughout the face of the earth.” As a Harbi (non-Muslim living in a non-Muslim country) myself, I can only be alarmed by such declarations.
“Entire governments have a very big agenda to make Muslims look like terrorists and obviously this piece of news doesn’t fit with their agenda.” Are you denying that self-identifying Muslims have carried out these acts of terrorism?
“It’s not logical to steretoype 1.5 billion people based on what 10-20 Muslims may (or may not) have done.” You’re kidding, right? At least that many carry out bombings every *day* in Iraq. So even if only 1% of 1 billion Muslims espouse Islamic fundamentalism, that’s still a heck of a lot of fanatics (10 million, to be precise). I’m sure the real percentage is significantly higher. As much as I despise them, you don’t see Christian fundamentalists blowing themselves up very often. Which leads to the question, what is it about Islam that leads so many of its followers to fanaticism and violence? Please understand that I’m not calling all Muslims extremists or terrorists. But many Muslims are, and I have every right to ask why.
And no, I’m not even remotely convinced that it is “obvious there must be One God who created the heavens and the earth”, I’m afraid. Are you trying to convert me?
Now, you have come to the point where you are trying to define what a Muslim is and what a devout Muslim is.
Until you realize that a religion is based on scripture, and not its followers, you will remain in a blunder of confusion as you have proved in your last post.
I am not trying to offend you; it’s just a fact.
As for us, it’s very, very clear because the one who created the heavens and earth has explicity given us the definition of a Muslim and the definition of a devout Muslim and this is what we use. It’s common knowledge amongst Muslims.
No, I am not trying to convert you since as you know the verse in the Qur’an that says, “There is no compulsion in religion.” My job is to convey the message to you and I feel that I have.
Beyond this, I feel it’s a waste of time to enter your blunder of confusion and go on and on without any results.
We listen and obey to our Creator, the creator of the heavens and the earth because we worship Him alone. If you choose to listen and obey your ownself whenever you feel like it because you worship yourself, than that’s up to you.
But, when we all meet the creator of the heavens and the earth on the Day of Judgement, bear witness that we are Muslims and that we have conveyed the message to you. You will have no excuse at that point and you will highly regret what you are saying.
Goodbye Macedonian.
(If you would like me to answer your other quesitons you asked me at the beginning about Islam or the one about hijab, well I said I would so I have to follow up with my word. I see it pointless to answer them since it makes no difference to you but if you are still interested, let me know.)
Selam alaykoum Greekmuslim
Καλή απάντηση αδελφέ!!
συνεχής. η πίστη σου με κάνει ευχαρίστηση!
Selam
Since this dialogue is finished, I’d like to say something last to Macedonian. Why, if you judge a religion by it’s followers, don’t you take us here and now as examples? What’s wrong with us? Why is it always the maniacs that someone takes as the representatives of a religion? And, well, some of those “terrorists” (like those *defending* Palestine), how in God’s name can you call them terrorists? I mean, seriously…what’s wrong with you people, don’t you see them being killed everyday by Israeli soldiers? I want you to think very deeply, and tell me who at end, are the terrorists? And be honest!
And another thing. How is it that our law tells us to kill you, when you are the future Muslim (hypothetically)? I mean, we can’t force you into becoming Muslim, so the only way is talking to you, so if we kill you, we can’t spread the word to you, as simple as that.
Vallahi….it is a really beautiful response.
Dear Brothers and Sisters , My Cousins in Humanity, The discussions between our two cousins from Greek area of the earth , has provided unique opertunity to learn human mind. I really benifited a lot.
Question : “The belief must be taken from Scripture not by followers”
Awnser One: In scientific resaerch (at graduate level) any thouths/refrence are quoated from the published material not verbel say of university teacher. So The religion research the rule must be followed. Otherwise your voice/statement will be conducted as tautology .. Which has no place in arguments.
Awnser 2: Jesus(Peace and Blessings upon him and his mother) has come to call Religiouse Leaders and common man to be true submitters to God Almighty. Although they were verbal believer of One God but they were worshippers of High places in the court and Money , Worldly luxiouse life. Jesus (PBUH) has announced to the common man that Please follow their Sermons/ Words but not their deeds. It proves that if deeds are bad not necessarily teachings are wrong. … I think Most of the muslims are follwing religion of love to Material/Life of this world. So It doesnot mean The Religion of Muslim is wrong. May God Allmighty help us to bring us on right path in bliefs and deeds.
Awnser 3: If a person denies his/her parents, discgrace them, disobey them , it doesnot change the fact that They are not his parents. Even He/she repeats it 100000 times. So facts never changes with wrong statements and wrong beliefs.
Question: Are we Children of Adam even we are African, European, Chinese, Asian, Arabs etc.
Awnser:
Human Kind has perfectly same anatomy allover the world .. Do we have diffrent medical education for African, Chineses, European or Arabs …?
Please learn from IBM-National Geogrphic Genome project .. It proves that We are humans ..African, Austrailian Aborginals, European, Chinese, Assian, Arabs, Jews .. has common anecesstral tree some have same father 5000 years ago, some have 7000 years ago some have 4000 thousdands .. But we have one Father which is called Scientific Adam.
The tautolgy of Adam which confused millions of minds , has not scientfic foundation read http://www.harunyahya.com
Question : Life after Death .. Would we be alive after death.
Yes .. Certainly. I am certain Just like ” I have this keyboard under my hand right now”
Just Check Proof of Quranic Ayat” Donot say dead who killed in the way of Allah but they are alive and recieve feeding from Almighty”… It means body of a true martyres desonot perish/decompose even after several years/ thousands years
There are several Authrticatable evidences: some are quated here:
In the eara of Shah Farooq in 1967 : The Chief Justice and The Shah Farooq saw dreams during sonsectiive three days that two persons were telling that save us from water of Furat .. . They asked people to search for location they saw in dreams . When they reached there and dug the place they saw three persons’dead but seems fresh body . They found water was reaching to there foots underground even though it was around 200 metter far from the river. They reserched they found that theses were amongst the companions of the prphets who fought battel in this area 1400 years ago. While tranfring their bodies hand of one of them was moved . it statted bleeding. It was put there again.
At last you must have to submit to Your creator , the perfact creator who has created laws of Physics, Laws of Chemistry, Laws of geneology, Laws of Thermodynamics, Laws of Motion .. these laws wre not created by Newton or Farday or Plunks or any scientifific man .. But they have just discovred these facts . But Theses all were made by Almighty Creator The only God. You believe or denay but you can not avoid them. If you are so powerfull try to violateany Law of Physics .. .. You know Horse=Car, Bee=Nector Collector, Fish= Swimer, etc… Theses are creation of Almighty who has not choice and has been programmed to follow camonds of Almighty by a specfic perpose software installed in them. But only mankind has capability to posses software of his own choices . Thats why he will be asked by the Creator to punish or reward for his good or bad choices.. THe creator has sent guidance for man to give correct software o mankind “The Scripture ” . The last scripture (The latest version of Guidlines.) is Quraan.
May My Creator Forgive me for any Mistake.. The perfect knowledge is with the Creator only .. May Allah guid us to the true path and save us from his disobedience. Ameen.
Αdelfe greekmuslim alsalam alekom. sas thavmazw gia ten peisti pou exeis sas metfrazw tei elege o profeites O MOHAMMED: THEI MOU FWTIZE TEIN FILEI MOU GIATI DEN GNOREIZOUN.