“Sooooo… you are a Muslim?”, the older Greek lady asking with that look of “man, I just can’t withhold anymore. I know as a professional it’s not very politically correct to ask…but…I just have to ask her!
“Uh..mmhmm.” (smiling)
“Wwwwhy did you choose this?” (sizing me up)
“Well…(pause)… I realized that I believe in one God and I want to worship him alone,” mustering a response, trying to figure out how to summarize the entire creed of Islam into one sentence.
“Uhh, (blank face), yeah [duh!] so do we.” (a tinge of insult flashes across her face)
“Yes, but we don’t believe Jesus is God or the son of God. We worship one God, the God who created all of us and we don’t associate partners with him. We believe Jesus is a great messenger of God.”
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This is a conversation I had with an older Greek lady. See, what I realized is, that if you say you believe in one God, Greeks agree with that, because they don’t see that believing Jesus (pbuh) in being the only begotten son or God to be in conflict with that statement.
I started pondering over what Greek Orthodox believe that’s written in the Greek (Nicene) Creed or the “Pistevo” below that I was taught so reverently since I was a child. Read below and you’ll catch some flaws:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. AMEN.
See, but here’s the problem with the creed. First of all, this creed was created in 325AD, that’s a entire 325 years AFTER Jesus (pbuh) left the earth! That’s the first clue that Jesus (pbuh) didn’t say this himself! A council of bishops came together under political influence of the pagan sun god worshipper Roman Emperor, Constantine, to decide if Jesus (pbuh) was divine (i.e. begotten) or just created because this concept of a begotten son was not condoned in the old testament or new testament.
The Council of Nicea and the creed was the result of an intense political ordeal for more power for the Pagan emperor (for more information on the creed and it’s flaws, visit http://www.bibleislam.com/nicaea_council_325.php) and what came out of it, was this creed (above) that defined Jesus (pbuh) as the only begotten son of God to now be worshiped, along with some convenient compromises like… changing the bithdate of Jesus to December and celebrating Easter (to concide with the pagan practices of the Roman emperor)!!
So, back to the conversation with this Greek lady, I couldn’t really go into this detail at the spur of the moment, but I wish I could have shown her this video to explain it! Check it out:
Muslim and former Preacher explain’s the Christian Trinity
Also, this is what I really should have told her:
People of the Book, do not exaggerate your religion. Do not say about Allah except the truth. Indeed, the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is only a Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah, and His Word (Be) which He gave to Mary, and a (created) spirit by Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers and do not say: ‘Trinity.’ Refrain, it is better for you. Allah is only One God. Exaltations to Him that He should have son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, it is sufficient that Allah is the Guardian. (Qur’an 4:171)
“…that’s a entire 325 years AFTER Jesus (pbuh) died!”
You might want to change the “died” part.
You’re right. Thanks for catching that typo. I went ahead and fixed it.
If anything else comes up, please let us know.
“that’s a entire 325 years AFTER Jesus (pbuh) left the earth!”
You might want to change that to “that’s about 300 years after Jesus left the earth,” which would have been around 25AD, give or take a couple years.
As a theologian and teacher it saddens me to see and hear a report such as this. I was directed to this web page by a student who is studying Muslim/Christian relations and was deeply disturbed by the broadcast. The former Christian pastor does not address the core biblical issue of the Trinity, preferring instead to focus on the historical process of doctrinal development. That process is flawed in all religious traditions (the current “denominational” division in the Muslim faith is a direct outgrowth of the same flawed process within the Muslim faith tradition) and does not explain the belief, just the action taken on the belief.
The Trinity, though not called this, is well represented in biblical literature, both the Gospels and letters. The prayer Jesus makes in the Gospel of John Chapters 14-16 is a prime example of the foundational material from which we understand the Trinity. Perhaps you should invite a Christian theologian to speak about the Trinity who would give the topic a more equal presentation than a pastor who has already rejected the Christian faith.
Additionally, the “cut in segment” which answers viewers questions showed a fundamental flaw in presentation. The Imam was asked “why do you believe…” but his answer was not based on the positive teaching of the Koran, but a negative and incorrect observation of Christianity. His answer was premised on a erroneous assumption of “need” and dependency within the Christian understanding of the godhead. He said, “for god to be a trinity that would mean that god would require help” and that “in order for there to be three gods,” neither of these statement reflect what Christians believe or are an accurate description of the Doctrine of the Trinity. The Imam is simply showing his misunderstanding of the Christian faith and, sadly defining what Muslims believe, not by what the Koran says, but by what Muslims don’t believe.
I would hope that in the future, you would explain what the Koran says and what the Bible says and how they differ, not by what a commentator thinks they say, or by historical a historical survey of the doctrine, or by what they (the commentator) believe (which as we know, is subjective.) This would be a much more positive and honest presentation.
Hello. Thank you for your comment. This is one of our old posts. Since then, we have moved over to our new website so I copied your comment here: http://www.greeksrethink.com/2008/06/the-flaws-of-the-greek-nicean-creed/
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